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Mage-thief combo stats catchup  discussions

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2020/12/13 12:50, Breaux: 
I donít really see the purpose. Sleep will be useless in pk - on the off chance that you land it, your stab dmg will be like pretty random and most of the time low, so youíre better off calling letís say one badger and anuker to inflict more dmg.
In exp I agree ó if you want to try something which is ďout thereĒ, then blinding stabber is probably a lot more useful given ability to do recurring stabs and given robe.

Feel free to try this but i doubt you will find this char to be of any lasting enjoyment

2020/12/13 15:36, Elestir:   
@Tapio I fail to see how Ares's response was any more honest than mine. I honestly think the sleep is OP in PK and that if you become particulary successful with this build (which probably ain't gonna happen though), it could help open eyes of management and make them do something with sleep spell in PK. But giving it 2nd thought, the wizkill potential of sleep dwells mostly in combination with bash, not with backstab, except for very specific wizkill tactics involving two sleeps (which was executed in past by Vardamir and Decoy if I remember) but that one requires two players and exact timing. As a soloer, you won't be so dangerous, because once ppl get their hps below backstab damage, they will just avoid fighting you solo (or be careful not to eat any spells from you at least). Then again you can always try your luck with black candles vs such low enemies, as those will keep their wizkill potential until they get nerfed.

So if you want my honest opinion about what is the most efficient way to 'abuse' sleep, be pure mage and have a wizkill squad (basher with at least 1 more nuker, ideally with call lightning or dispel evil) ready to punish any1 willing to fight you 1v1. If you insist on playing solo and look for wizkills, then forget about learning sleep spell as a thief and just use black candles once enemies get low.

2020/12/14 04:12, Alweon:edited 2x   
I feel pretty confident this character will be totally RNG-based and you'll need a ton of levels to even have a slight chance of pulling it off. Even for pure mages with max mentals and high +spell attack, sleep in PK far from guaranteed. I can only imagine how bad it would be on a scout combo... And even if you land the dream sleep on a hurt/wounded target, backstab damage may roll low on you too.

Maybe you can make it work at super high level but that's a massive investment on an off-chance. Plus, if you get a couple kills with it you will become so notorious nobody will fight you 1v1.

To each their own though. Just seems weird that you'd basically have to beat down your opponent as a mage then go for the sleep-stab combo hoping it lands. Aggro charmies may ruin your sleep, so that limits you as well. At that point, why not just go full mage, since the only thiefy thing you'll ever do is the gimmicky combo?

2020/12/14 21:04, Tapio:  edited 1x   
nver mind

2020/12/14 21:29, Alweon: 
Hey man, not trying to kill your dream - just trying to hopefully save ya time. Only offering feedback since you asked for it and it's only my opinion. By all means, if you think it can make it work don't let us stop you. You enjoy you! :)

2020/12/17 16:05, Osilin: 
I have tried a combo with a bit more butch stats as elf and orc (more scout, less caster) and the result is that backstab is still quite OK, bob is kinda useful, armour helps a bit, bolt is so-so, but no 'spicy' spells (I have tried blind, store, sleep) are usable... If orcs didn't have that 3 stat point malus, they would be nice caster combos, because of the shaman class, not separate cleric and mage class.

Cylas looks like this
Str:12 Int:15 Wis:13 Dex:18 Con:14 Wil:12 Per:17
At the moment I have 99% sneak-stab, 68% armour, attack spells like bolt or spray or even quake would also be around armour percent. Bob is only 52% and it is maxed...
Mobility is quite nice, but this char isn't particularly lethal.

2020/12/17 17:39, Elestir:  edited 1x   
Getting bob is probably bad idea for thief-mage (at least for whitie). You have access to travelling, miruvors, vellums, draughts, pbs. Should be enough to grant you sufficient mobility. I would stay away from most cleric spells to keep backstab and mage spells more powerful. Bolt is good idea because BNs are vulnerable to it. Quake could also be interesting. But I remember even teleporting thief mage (Vayu). Block door is a must have too.

2020/12/17 18:10, Ares: 
If you are going for a maximum thief and mage utility with high int dex per, then I dont think the char is playable without bob. Also access to and 'having to grind' all these consumables without being able to just play is a huge difference.

Almost all my builds have good bob and also retain 100%+ thief skills, dont see why the char cant have both, especially whitie with a staff.


2020/12/17 22:55, Draz:   
@Elestir, very smart as always, I love the idea of an item centric approach to moves (maybe emphasizing some str to carry it all) makes more sense. Especially if you want you char to work at level 50 and not level 70 (based on my experience balancing orc scouts).

2020/12/25 18:04, Osilin: 
Orc scout-caster: Str:13 Int:12 Wis:12 Dex:18 Con:14 Wil:10 Per:17. Can't really get much better mentals, if you want to have usable stab/sneak at low legend... Some would probably drop str and con buy 1 point, and get one it or wis.
100% stab, and working armour, bob, quake and cure light at level 25 right now.

2020/12/25 20:57, Ares: 
Again, just nope. That's not gonna be a working bob and armour char :P unless at level gazillion. Either get your mentals (especially int if armour) much higher or save your time.

2020/12/27 12:17, Ares: 
If you absolutely want to try an orc scout-shaman then you could try these stats: Str:11 Int:15 Wis:11 Dex:18 Con:11 Wil: 8 Per:17.

That will get you bob,armour,attack spell and 100%-ish thief skills at a higher levels (40+). The char is still going feel like made out of glass, but It'll work for most purposes. With these thats and maxed out spellattack you can probably exp in noc with blind/stab too, but It's so damn random it'll make you cry :D

2020/12/27 20:26, Dearth:   
Ares' stats are best you can do and still it will not work at all.. Orc warscouts with bash are way way better than whatever orc mage-scout combo.. especially with blind because blind formula is: 50 + 1.875*WIS + 1.25*WIL.. so blind + stab will always suck on orc because orcs have huge minus to WIS and WIL.

Puke scout with sleep+stab combo might work a little better but still bad because stab+sleep both require high % to work and need high WIL and levels for sleep to be reliable.

What about a full cancer puke with charm+sleep+call lightning.. Plan: your bashpig bashes someone solo, you flee charmies, sleep bashed person, get weather, bash + call lightningx3 with max attack spell :D Now that might work, might actually try it on my lvl 60 cleric, maybe works because it has WIL 16 but low PER. Could even try on high level BN because easy to get lithes.

2020/12/28 00:59, IminyŽ:edited 4x   
it's outdoors form of cancer with fatality rate indistinguishable from absolute zero. test char cleric for charm+sleep+call... someone's forgotten to mention +store+control - a cleric (really?).
BNs don't control weather afaik.

2021/01/14 07:39, IminyŽ:edited 5x   
blast of the past
Candid the Sniper - Nothing Sacred (level 34).
Your base abilities are: Str:14 Int:15 Wis:11 Dex:20 Con:14 Wil:13 Per:19.
#2nd age, so BASE STATS: Str:12 Int:14 Wis:11 Dex:19 Con:14 Wil:11 Per:18.
Offensive Bonus: 71%, Dodging Bonus: 56%, Parrying Bonus: 73%. // Rdell
Offensive Bonus: 67%, Dodging Bonus: 56%, Parrying Bonus: 70%. // Ford
Your armour provides an average protection of 47%.
You have 239/239 hit, 91/91 mana, and 135/135 movement points.

You are subjected to the following temporary effects:
- shroud
- strength
- detect magic
- armour
- potion ### Travelling

* CSW>prac
You have 4 practice sessions left.

Awareness 15/27 95% Excellent General
Climb 7/13 80% Good General
First aid 2/18 30% Bad General
Ride 4/13 61% Fair General
Swim 9/14 85% Very good General
Track 17/27 102% Superb General
Wilderness 21/27 79% Good General
Armour 16/16 68% Fair Mage 25, Very short
Block door 8/11 62% Fair Mage 26, Very short
Detect magic 1/ 8 33% Poor Mage 4, Very short
Enchant 11/22 56% Average Mage 104, Normal
Locate 3/16 37% Poor Mage 21, Short
Shroud 2/16 32% Poor Mage 5, Short
Teleport 6/16 49% Average Mage 34, Very short
Breath of briskness 18/18 55% Average Cleric 25, Short
Create food 3/12 38% Poor Cleric 5, Very short
Create water 2/12 32% Bad Cleric 5, Very short
Cure light 5/ 8 46% Poor Cleric 8, Very short
Attack 3/16 49% Average Thief
Backstab 23/23 98% Excellent Thief
Dodge 5/23 63% Fair Thief
Envenom 16/16 85% Very good Thief
Missile 16/16 98% Excellent Thief
Pick 4/16 56% Average Thief
Piercing weapons 3/16 55% Average Thief
Search 2/16 41% Poor Thief
Sneak 23/23 98% Excellent Thief
Endurance 5/58 25% Bad Warrior
Parry 2/29 32% Poor Warrior

2021/01/15 20:30, Thonr: 
for elf/hobbit - max dex and 17 per (base) is best to achive max thief % - so more per doesnt make sense as you can use it for more wis or int or others - just my 2 cents

2021/01/16 00:54, Draz:   
There's like a hard cap at 109% sneak / backstab right? I feel like I've noticed the same thing.

My assumption was that if you went above the 109% you have more 'room' to prac out of class theoretically but that's just wild speculation.

2021/01/16 09:43, IminyŽ:edited 2x   
@Draz I haven't understood a single word.
Would you kindly explain what are 'hard cap', 'have more room', 'prac out of class theoretically'. In other words translate from heavy mume slang into English. thanks

Also I can't imagine combo with 109% in skill

2021/01/16 19:52, Draz:   
So I did a test on my scouts where I trained off all non-scout skills and then practice all scout to see how high the % would go.

If I remember correctly (and I did this a while ago and didn't take notes), both my elf max dex/per scout (19/19) and my max dex per orc (18/18) got 109% sneak and backstab.

So to me, I believe there's a hard cap on how effective sneak can be from the skill, theoretically just based on the stats. If my orc gets 109%, my elf should easily get 111% sneak/stab.

That's why I was really interested in Thonr's comment because it begs the question, do you get the theoretical excess % (that isn't shown above 109%) when prac'ing out of class (meaning you could prac say more endurance with higher dex/per on elf vs. orc while keeping 109% or 106% sneak or do you just lose the excess and it's pointless to have higher than 17 per as Thonr says.

2021/01/17 03:57, Thonr:edited 1x   
I tested it long time ago, you will get drop % practing out of class for same % no matter u got 17 per or 19 per (as elf/hobbit) and yes there is cap 109sneak110 hide.

2021/01/17 04:24, Draz:   
@Thonr very interesting, thank you!

2021/01/17 19:49, Lindisse:   
I noticed the same cap as Thonr, but as I understand it, the cap is in the stats taken into consideration when calculating your skill percent: every point above 36 dex+per is not considered. So you can choose dex:19 per:17 or dex:18 per:18.

To say it in another words, the cap is not in the skill percent itself, as combos (who will not reach the 110% skill cap) are affected the same way: there's no value in putting more than 36 points in dex+per for sneak and stab.

This only affects sneak and stab, and not dodge, afaik.

And, to add to that thread, here are lindisse's stats:
Str:13 Int:18 Wis:11 Dex:19 Con:10 Wil:10 Per:17. She's stabbing and porting, which is an absolutely delightful gameplay, but she's very weak. I should probably play her again...

2021/01/17 23:58, Dearth:   
Has anyone tested RECENTLY what the caps for different spells are? Like a mage with INT 19, WIS 18, Per 13 will hit a 109-110% cap Fireball/Bolt/Spray/BHands afaik. But will INT 19, WIS 17, Per 12 also hit that cap? Or INT 19, WIS 18, Per 11?

2021/01/18 01:25, Ruen:edited 1x   
I made a war-mage character with 19 int and 16 wis, and 11 per. I trained off all other spells and skills other than mage skills and spells. With 16 out of 16 pracs earthquake was 111%. Colour spray with max pracs had 102%

2021/01/18 06:41, Dearth:   
102% Colour Spray makes sense:
The old Gray formula: 50 + 1.5*INT + WIS + 0.67*PER
50+1,5◊(19INT)+(16WIS)+0,67◊(11PER) = 101.87%

Earthquake 111% does not make sense:
Formula: 50 + 2*INT + 1.25*WIS
50+2*(19INT)+1.25*(16WIS)=108%

So either the formula is wrong or there are other factors, maybe race, maybe other spells 'strengthen' earthquake but earthquake doesn't 'strengthen' spray.. Who knows besides God and the programmer who made it 25 years ago and the programmer probably forgot around 15 years ago.. I really wish information like this was public:(

If the formulas have to be super secret, then at least maybe a help file please about caps please because very few even experienced people know that maxing DEX+PER on elf scout is a waste because of caps: 109sneak/bstab 110 hide. Really really sucks to find out that information from someone when your character is already legend..

2021/01/18 21:16, IminyŽ: 
I really think that 111% quake is not feasible for a thief-mage combo

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