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Suggestion : Mud Client catchup  discussions

2011/02/26 16:48, Gabriel:   
Hello all. While I haven't been playing in 6 months or so, I have been following the conversations about game improvement etc etc, and I have a suggestion and perhaps a challenge to some of the more gifted computer geeks out there. I think one of the harder things out there for the average person to start playing this game is a client. I'm not saying there hasn't been good clients set up out there, but I am saying, it would make it tons easier to have a 'client for mume' for dummies. So I put the challenge out there for someone to write a windows client that's super simple to use, and takes all the different mume things into account that JMC et all use, but that you don't have to be a computer guru to get running well. If we are to attract new players in the future, we don't want them to be scared off by having to figure out how to actually run a good client. Just a suggestion from one of those computer dummies :)

2011/02/26 17:23, Faint: 
i really wish i could do that since i have all the free time in the world atm...

2011/02/26 18:41, Andróg:   
Well, if anyone seriously plans to work on this, then here's a good list of guiding ideas about what it could/should/ought to include:

2011/02/21 10:39, Berdo: edited 1x
Oh, thanks for bringing that point up. I still wait for a modern MUME client. One that shows narrates in a seperate window, maybe has some gui, clickable things, that filters shop output, pracs, has a nice representation of your or some enemies eq, stuff like that - without neededing any fancy setting up or installation, a working tell history, built in xp counter, maybe even creates GRAPHS for each your chars showing playtime vs. TP, XP, Level, whatever...

2011/02/26 19:06, Dearth:   
Hmm.. not to start inventing a wheel. It would be a lot easier to make a simple wiki file that help Windows users to get JMC running really quick with all those features. Of course it would have to be consulted with Timodeus, what to include and what not.

But for starters:
*Xp counters are available on this site under 'Client scripts' in opening page.
*Narrates, tells and other messages in separate windows, tell history - #output command in JMC. just read the syntax in help file - really easy to use.
*Filtering shop out - #alias showequipment = show ornate+ show bejewelled etc
*Eq representation - in game type help change and its eqorder or something like that.
*Use #substitute and #highlight for better visuals - also, really easy to use.

And the settings box in JMC has lots and lots more clickable things ;)

2011/02/26 19:11, Ortansia:   
I think what would rock, is a compilation of mmapper and client in one.
This idea was proposed a long time ago maybe one it will become true :)

2011/02/26 19:35, Andróg:   
Those are not 'really easy' for a newbie. To not scare away a newbie we don't need a lenghty wiki-file, we'd need those things automatised!

2011/02/26 19:46, Gabriel:   
Yeah I entirely agree with Androg here... your response on using # this or # that already glossed me over, and I mean that with no offense. I just think it would be huge if you didn't have to learn the client to be able to play mume. I do realize it was proposed long ago, and then recently again by Berdo... I just wanted to dedicate it to a thread so perhaps somebody with some time and drive might pick it up as a hobby project.

2011/02/26 20:03, Zingo: 
Create a basic settings-file for jmc, with proper aliases, actions, hotkeys, subs and highlights, create a profile in jmc which autoloads that file. Write a simple howto, listing some aliases and which command connects to mume. Rar the folder and put on er/ Maybe even add mmapper or pandora with a basic map included, and jmc connecting to that mapper.

Newbie unrar, click, and xpxp

2011/02/26 20:20, Atticus: 
Some past projects that tie into this would be:

Jahara's Mclient - [submitted link]
- Not sure where it is currently, but last I heard there were some issues that caused a hold to be put on development

The Java Based Facebook Mapper (based on cheeselab) - [submitted link]
- Not sure what ended up putting a halt to this project tbh. I find myself in a similar boat as faint.. not necessarily with having all the time in the world, but at least with wishing I was able to contribute more to projects like these.

2011/03/02 22:06, Khazdul: 
Integrating a client with mapper to facebook could be a really efficient way to attract new players. :D

2011/03/03 21:24, Andróg:   
Yeah, well, so far there's been tons of talk and no action in that. And this is something any MUMEr could set up, Management of course included, but it can be done without them as well. So, get it done! ;)

(PS. Me not included, I'm completely incompetent as far as anything coding-related goes. :))

2011/03/04 06:32, Savu:   
But why make anything new? Just upload a client with a good MUME profile somewhere, where people can download it.

If there was a JMC client with default profile for MUME, that automatically connects when you open it, then I'm sure it would be more than sufficient for new players to get started.

2011/03/04 12:51, Faxe:edited 2x   
im planning to release a mudclient for google crome html5. there is a telnet client on github.

[submitted link]

some tweeks, echo your input and a textfield for history etc..

2011/03/04 14:30, Kalev:   
I think Javascript and HTML5 sockets API is the way to go for web based clients. Awesome idea, Faxe!

2011/03/04 19:44, Savu:   
Wonder why canvas element was used in that example tho. Telnet displays characters and web browsers can do the same without canvas... or am I missing something.

2011/03/04 21:36, Faxe: 
well, there is still an debate weather the canvas or DOM is faster.

canvas is nice, for a programmer, it like almost like drawing in any other programming language

2011/03/05 17:20, Savu:   
Yes, but basically telnet is writing, not drawing ;)

2011/03/05 17:35, Faxe: 
Yes but then u will be fighting with the look and feel of the client

but be my guest if u whant to play mume in Verdana or Arial,
no one will stop u to program your own copy of a webbased client

2011/03/05 17:52, Berdo: 
Some nice package of client + preinstalled scripts would surely be a good thing.

A second package should include the client with a mapper, at best both in a self-extracting archive or something you just have to unzip.

2011/03/06 13:32, Savu:   
Come to think of it, the mappers have most of the needed functionality (all the connection stuff) available anyway(except action-handling/aliases etc). How hard would it be to implement the missing stuff and add a text area next to the map, so it would all be a single nice interface? Any of the mappers authors reading this forum?

2011/03/06 17:01, Azazello: 
Jahara tried something like that. I do not know how far he came, but the name of the project was mclient (mmapper plus something).

The problem i see here is that people use mainly either jmc or powwow.
Whereby jmc is not portable (even tho runs fine in wine) and powwow appeared (according to Jahara and my little research too) to be hard to inject into a mapper.

2011/03/06 18:05, Luineth:   
Next progression of that line of thought:

How difficult is it to create a new client for the purpose of embedding it with a mapper?

2011/03/06 20:57, Azazello: 
Hard, i'd say. Powwow still looks like the best 'base' for my taste. :-/

2011/03/06 22:32, Berdo: 
I talked with Jahara about it a few days ago.

He said mclient was a 'just' some simple mudclient but still a full blown application - so even catching up with powwow and all the work-hours that went into it would be a full-time hobby (so I understand it's more rewarding to create other thing instead as either full-time or several part-time hobbys).

Unless a group of motivated and talented people try to make a huge effort over 3 or 4 RL months to get a decent MUMEclient out, we probaly will not see a custom client that has a decent list of features. And we all know that this is not going to happen - or it WOULD have happened 5 or even 10 years ago.

Taking, customising and/or creating a bunch of nice scripts, setting them up and create an existing client/script/mapper config that works out of a zipfile seems to be our best chance to get something like this.
I honestly do not get why we do not already have something like that.
I guess some taleneted and motivated coder might be able to fix powtty to be a bit more powwow-complete and throw some GUI-elements on it - but that would already beyond anything we should expect.

In regard to scripts, what do you need?
An XP-counter, some report script, some spell-handler, some simple-but-legal targetter... what else would such a client need?
Some 'output re-formatters', probably.
Throw in a bunch of aliases that enables and disaples your scripts (or groups of them) in a nicely formatted way and we would be there.

2011/03/06 23:51, Razoor: 
And an action that auto-connects you via the mapper, to avoid confusion... ;)

2011/03/10 13:13, Faxe: 
if mume whant to survive the new Social internet, i guess first off all they should publish the roomid for better mappers and make it posible to parse everything in json

2011/03/12 14:01, Ortansia:  edited 1x   
How much does it costs to pay a talented programmer to make client+mmaper in one with all cool features?

2011/03/12 15:46, Berdo: 
I'd estimate 50ish to 200ish (more is also possible) per hour and at least 100 manhours for a decent client (incorporating an existing mapper). 100 hours is also a, I think, very conservative estimation and does not include support etc.

So we are looking at 5k at the very least. I'd guess creating a very decent client-mapper combination with two or three people could easily come out as 50k. The truth probably lies somewhere in between.

2011/03/13 16:59, Ortansia:  edited 1x   
Well then I guess it is time to put our hands in our pocket!! :).

I agree it will take long time for a programmer to make a new client, but what if he works on something that already exists and free like Powtty. I think Axel will be willing to give all the source code of his programe . So it will make the project move fast?

2011/03/16 07:54, Ezmodius:edited 1x   
Wow! I was really surprised to see this thread as I just got done pening my thoughts and creating a (static) prototype for exactly this! That is, a cross platform client with a built in mapper, script management system (this thread did point out to me though, that I'll need to provide a convertor for all popular client script types. Thanks for that), etc.

Now, before anyone read this and start to get excited I should point out the realities:

First if all, I'm going to write the whole thing in Lisp. I refuse to spend my spare hobby time writing in a painful low level language like C that takes more than 10 times the effort to do the same things. Ordinarily this would be a good thing because it would mean less effort to finish the project. This brings us to issue number 2: the common lisp libraries are a mess. So I'm writing a replacement first. My replacement aims to be more 'batteries included' than any offering so far, a huge deliverable in itself. That includes a full cross platform GUI library, another big deliverable. Instead of the way people typically do cross platform GUIs, I intend to use the MVP pattern so that the model and (hopefully) presenter can be written once but the (native, I hate swing-style emulators) views will have to be written separately for each supported platform. The build system would then output one target per supported platform.

So the bad news is, this could well be a 10 year+ project. The possibility is very real that it will never be finished at all.

The good news is that I had planned to do all of this sans the mud client anyway, and the mud client will be a great test of the usability of what I'm working on, so if I do any of it I'll do it all. If I had just a few months to focus on this (completely unrealistic at present) I could get most of it done.

Anyway, I just found it really interesting that I get interested in MUME again, decide to work on a client and then see this thread that had a lot of the same ideas.

2011/03/16 18:28, Savu:   
Yes, that seemed like a lot of work until I got to the point where you mention 10+ years. After that it was confirmed that it's a lot of work :D

Good luck with the lib tho!

2011/03/17 06:03, Ezmodius: 
I just want to make sure I don't give any false hope. If I could focus on it with regular 8+ hour working days it could probably be done in a couple of months. Instead I usually get a couple of hours a week. I'm trying to do something about that but we'll see how it turns out.

2011/03/17 07:06, Ortansia:   
Someone ready to create client and mapper in one is actually a great news!, Anyway take your time, don't feel like you have a moral commitment to satisfy us, and don't put too much pressures into yourself. Do it as a hobbit and let it take 10 years :).

I just have one question, sorry if it is a stupid question because I have no idea about programming!.
I'm just wondering instead of making a new client, is it possible to work on existing one like Powtty ( I think Axel will be willing to give all the source code), and then add new stuffs to it and try to inject a mapper into it?

2011/03/17 09:21, Ezmodious: 
It's technically possible. Since powwow is written in C I'm not interested in doing it, personally. For me, my lisp framework is the priority. The client is just something I saw that would be a good test and shouldn't be hard to do once the framework is there.

I'd love to have technical discussions about the (client)implementation if anyone wants.

2011/03/17 10:26, Antti: 
Kalev, Jahara and Waba comes first to my mind as persons who are able to have such discussions :)

2011/03/17 11:08, Berdo: 
I think you should actually ask them, as they probably made mistakes you do not have to double.
Also ask Azazello and Jahara on mappers.

If you have a specific question about powwow or how MUME interacts with clients you can also ask Dain (MUMEmail him).

2013/07/26 13:52, Azazello: 
I've been pondering and experimenting with latest Qt lib a bit.
Pondering the following idea:

QtQuick based client with mapper and 'graphics' plus 'helper plugins' (like shopping dialog etc)
QtQuick allows customized GUI with 2d/3d graphics as well as extensive javascript scripting. It would be a stand-alone desktop client, not some fancy web application. :(
May be powwow as base for scripts/matching.
May be something new, heavilly javascript based.

So far i've only evaluated the framework a bit:

[submitted link]

Possible plan is to create a heavilly customizable 'GUI' for mume. With mapper, binds, aliases HUD's with statuses etc.
It would be quite simple to extend without any recompilation/redeployment required.

The second idea is to deliver it with some 'ready to play' settings (mine, muahaha)

Anyone has experience with QtQuick?
Or anyone with extensive experience with HTML5 / javascript sockets? Performance ideas? Will it work?

2013/07/27 17:39, Ramangth: 
Never heard of QtQuick, but a web client using websockets sounds mighty interesting. :)

It's possible to write a websocket client that connects to an intermediary server which proxies traffic to and from MUME using something like this: [submitted link]
. Ideally the MUME server itself would be modified to handle websockets, but that wouldn't be strictly necessary.

2013/08/08 21:19, Timodeus:edited 1x   
No clue on websockets etc, but if you need support from xml for shops or whatever your client wants to pick up, you can always ask Dain about it.

Afaik one of the biggest issues during the development of mclient was... speed. The client must not create lag, so it might be useful to have the 'basic' client be somewhat independent of all the 'beautifyings' (buttons, gui, parser for shops, spelltimers etc etc).

The client should support mume local editing by default so we can easily have boards, bug reports etc etc (and building!) working out of the box.

2013/08/09 09:33, Alantir: 
Have you had a look at Mudlet Azazello? It's open source and based on Qt.

Very quick as well.. just have to mash it together with mmapper and we're on to something really good.

[submitted link]

2017/08/28 22:17, Strori: 
mudlet is fantastic with hit-tab-autofill for portal-teleport

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