|2017/03/10 14:23, Breaux:||edited 1x |
|Rogon, you've spent a lot of time trying to fix this, so your comments way back in this thread deserve more of a response than the comment I provided in Elemmakil's thread.
Your ideas and my comments on the same:
1. Removing nosneak increases scout's survivability and offensive capabilities. It must come with some sort of balancing.
MY COMMENT: Okay. The survivability could be balanced by the following two changes:
* For rooms flagged OUTDOORS, tracking a target into a room in which he is hidden, should automatically reveal the hidden target.
* entering a room upon a sneaking non-hidden player should automatically reveal the sneaking player.
In relation to the offensive capabilities, I believe my suggested change on removing sneak-bonus-dmg for piercing weapons would suffice. This would effectively only increase a scout's offensive capabilities whilst using missile, and as we all know missile can be super-easily countered by e.g. hit-fleeing (massive sneakdelay and lowered PB allow for effective hitfleeing vs missile-using scouts).
Conceptually, I'd also like to challenge your statement 'must come with balancing' which infers that scouts were previously OP. I never found this to be the case post the removal of sneak-bonus-dmg for non-piercing/missile wpnclasses. Please can I ask that you elaborate on this? I'm very keen to hear your comments in this respect.
Finally, I'd like to explore my case for the removal of the bare-targetting system. As i wrote in the other thread, scouts are practically forced (by the weight/sneak system) to be armourless on head, feet and hands. This puts them at a major disadvantage to other classes as far as damage reduction goes. I think this is completely acceptable, because we don't want thieves to become quasi-warriors by being completely armour-clad and still being able to sneak and backstab perfectly fine at the same time. Currently, you have to choose between being able to sneak&backstab and being a high-dex def-warrior. Makes sense.
Before moving into why the current bare-targeting system is detrimental to scouts I need to make a general note of the damage reduction/sturdiness of the various classes. I would argue that thieves are by far the weakest class in the game and has the least amount of damage reduction on the following basis:
+highest HP pool
+normally reasonably high WIL (spellsave)
+METAL/CHAIN armour with no/limited malus
CLERICS/MAGES (this is basically one class nowadays)
+armourspell (SCALES extremely well with levels and STACKS with physical armour - insane damage reduction)
+shieldspell (scales insanely well with levels and ignores so-called 'weight-reduced' DB.* My point is that if scout carries equipment worth 75lbs and grabs another 50lbs, his DB will be reduced by a MASSIVE amount, whereas if a mage/cleric grabs another 50 lbs of EQ, his DB will be reduced by somewhere between 0 and 1 DB. This is because while your base DB is reduced, the DB emanating from the shieldspell will be buffed. Zack, with shieldspell, grabbed 100lbs extra in addition to his normal eq and his DB was reduced by 1.)
+full metal/chain armour without much malus (this scales extremely well with armourspell and the slight mobility malus is effectively countered by travelling lore)
+sanctuary spell (and a special purple-sanc cap feature)
+usually protected by warriors
+damage reduction/survivability positively buffed with level-changes (armour/shieldspell scales well)
-low HP pool
-low dex (fleeing)
+ high dex
+ high defence
+ medium HP pool
- low WIL (spellsave)
- severe limitations in physical armour
- survivability negatively affected by level changes (clerics' DPS scales better than the few extra HP scouts got from the level changes)
As it quite clear from the foregoing, scouts are most susceptible to damage and have the least amount of damage reduction. The damage intake is _FURTHER_ amplified by the bare-targeting system. This system basically affects scouts only! Granted, mages/clerics wearing a circlet lack protection in 1/6 spots, compared to scouts 3/6. (But after the level changes, the current attackspell value of circlet is only 60%, so PKing casters will do well to switch into a great helm when PKing against theives/warriors).
The removal of the bare-targetting system would change the following things:
* slightly higher damage reduction for scouts in PK vs warriors and charmies. Note that the would still be, by far, the class most susceptible to damage intake - and BTW this includes all types of damage - magical damage (low wil) and physical damage (both from warriors and mobs due to non-protected areas). The removal of no-sneak would of course mitigate this to some extent, but flushing or 'chasing' are very simple counter-tactics to a sneak-shooting scout for instance. Also my proposed change on revealing sneakers upon entering the room will also help counter sneak-shooting thieves.
* slightly higher XP-rate (less time spent on regen)
2. Removing hide would reduce some of that survivability again. It could be replaced with some other skill that does not increase survivability.
See discussion above. Hide does not need to be fully removed, just simply tweaked to negate some of the survivability aspects of it. Using hide offensively, e.g. hidetraps, hiding outside doors to backstab, loophiding to backstab provides effective measures for scouts to get kills.
3. Steal skill could be replaced with something useful too. Again, preferably not survivability.
I'd welcome this discussion, but I don't think that it should be at the expense of anything I've proposed.
4. Maybe a skill that makes scouts useful to groups? At the moment they bring nothing really except parry splitting. Or do people who play scouts do so because they like to play solo? Today most scouts are probably solo-players because... It's more or less the only thing they can do?
I'd welcome this discussion, but in general, I think my proposed changes, particularly around the removal of the bare-targetting system, and the removal of no-sneak would make scouts slightly more useful in groups. In general, I think people would play scouts more and inadvertently, it would lead to scouts grouping up with other classes.
5. Scouts should be encouraged to play in non-metal armour. One thought: Move cost while sneaking is affected by what you wear. Current move cost = about 4 pieces of chain. Increased cost for 5-6 chain and even more for plate. But also reduced cost for less chain/plate. Goal: Scouts wear more leather, gets less survivability in melee, but can move around more sneaking. Since it'd be optional, from today's situation in sneak cost, noone would lose anything if they kept their chains. But you'd be tempted by the possible gains.
'Bad' possible side effect: rem armour to sneak around, put it on when fight incoming.
Also 'bad': There's not really any legend-eq in the leather department.
Also tweaked depending on what you wear could be sneak chance, backstab chance. But it would have to be done with both a gain and a loss compared to today's situation.
Let me comment on your stated 'goal' first: 'Scouts should wear more leathers, and get less survivability in melee'. There are a million reasons why this 'goal' does not make sense, but let me comment on a few of them:
* Already the weakest class! As i've outlined above, and i repeat, SCOUTS ARE, BY A LANDSLIDE, THE WEAKEST CLASS IN TERMS OF DAMAGE REDUCTION AND MELEE SURVIVABILITY.
* Scouts generally have higher STR than clerics/mages. Why 'should' scouts be confined to leathers, but not mages/clerics. It does not make sense. Currently, as stated above, clerics/mages will do wisely to wear full METAL (i'm not even talking about CHAINs) without any nameworthy malus, whilst scouts cannot even wear full CHAIN.
Actually, let me be perfectly clear - Any changes towards this goal will be the end of an already deeply depressed closed-area PK-ing scout class. Removing no-sneak will not begin to weigh up the negative effects. This I can 100% guarantee you.
Can I ask what your basis for this goal is? Is it RP-based or gameplay-based? Either way, I really can't wrap my head around the reasoning.
I'll finally comment on another goal which you mention, namely 'Scouts should be encouraged to play in non-metal armour'. I don't disagree with this. The fact is that scouts are CURRENTLY SEVERELY dis-incentivized to play in metal armour. Metal armour is extremely heavy, and scouts' sneak and backstab skills will simply not function if METAL is worn. I've seen 1, maybe 2 scouts wear shining metals and be bare on head, feet, and hands. Is this your concern? First off, shining metals are supremely hard to obtain, particularly for a scout. Next, such rare instances of scouts will have to drop extremely important consumables (rocks, draughts, scrolls) to cope weight wise. Third, they are still bare on 3/6 body parts and still just as susceptible to magical damage. Fourth, if anything should be encouraged, it is for mages/clerics NOT to play in METALs with no maluses. Scouts already have maluses for this (sneak/backstab/weight/mobility).
Finally, I'd like to think that i'm reasonably objective with my proposed changes. I welcomed the level-changes, although I was probably the 2nd most negatively affected player by this in terms of charpower (Elestir first!). I've always been, and particularly when playing Day, an avid advocate of de-buffing mages and clerics, in particular the insta-recite and purple-sanc-cap features.
I'm focused on the PKing side of things, so I've limited my comments above to just that. A few minor remarks on the exping side of things. I think this is more or less balanced as is. I think you can achieve a reasonably high exp-rate as scout (not nearly as high as mages/clerics ofcourse, but mages/clerics are always #1 at everything so let's not worry about that for now). I think that backstab as a pureish thief (107%) works just fine. Yes, you will fail a stab on a plain horse now and then. Yes, you will fail a stab at a sleeping player sometimes. No, you should not stab multiple orkish bodyguards or multiple stacks of mobs with high awareness. With some common sense applied, I don't think XPing as a scout is all that bad.
I also think it's reasonably balanced that in order for you to backstab well in exp, you need to be pure. Similarly for other classes, warmages and warclerics will suffer in exp. So why should not warscouts and magethieves suffer similarly? I think the current state is fine basically.
The removal of no-sneak, and the introduction of my other proposed changes, _should_ (based on my experienced and understanding of game mechs) not drastically affect the XP-rate. Mobs seem to be extra aware just after you've stabbed them. So even though i use escape while backstab-exping, I will wait a few extra secs to let the mobs cool down. In other words, in the event no-sneak is removed, a person spam backstabbing after fleeing will probably not be very successful, imo.
In summary, I'm proposing the following 5 changes. They are reasonably balanced and address most issues PKing scouts are currently facing, whilst at the same time not making them as allegedly 'powerful' as they were prior to Ilie's changes. The side-effects, e.g. in XP, should be fairly neutral. Finally, they should be very easy to code and to implement. And if people don't like it, you can always blame me! :)
1. Remove no-sneak.
2. Remove the sneak-bonus-damage on all weaponskills except missile (I believe currently it is available on piercing weapons and missile).
3. Remove the current bare-targetting system (currently you will focus your strikes on bare areas) and revert to the old one where it was basically random/or based on 'percentage breakdown of body areas'.
4. Ensure that hiding targets outside are automatically revealed if tracked into the room in which they are hiding. Keep current hiding system indoors as is.
5. entering a room upon a sneaking non-hidden player should automatically reveal the sneaking player.