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2017/04/23 17:41, Ortansia:  edited 4x   
@Zepir nothing new, your counter arguments are just: you are a liar, you are stupid, you are a zealot.
You are not in anyway stating objective facts, you are only expression your feelings : hate of Islam and hate of Muslims, who cares? no one with brain is taking seriously your biased claims and judgment.

Your caricaturist view of Islam and muslims, only proves you didn't go through deep analysis.

Someone who dig deeper into a subject will never come up with such absolute and simplistic claims, but comes up with relativist and complex view, because he knows that the context is different from one country to another, from one era to another, so he would never dare make over generalizations like you do.

Someone who do deep analysis is humble to hear others views, not arrogant like you, who thinks he knows everything, and better about Islam than Muslims themselves. And then insults those who disagree with you.

I'm not sure why you think yourself PHD of Religions, just because you did quick superficial biased research on google, then take information from openly Islamophobic websites like Wikislam and religionofpeace.

PS: Concerning Wahabism, it is from Saudi Arabia, not from countries you stated ;)

Edit x
Once again you are not Islamophobic, because you criticize Islam, but because you are very critical to Islam and neutral to other religions. This difference of treatment, is what makes you look Islamophobic...

2017/04/23 18:37, Razoor: 
Hmm, I think you're presenting two separate arguments, one of which I agree with. I can't speak about the attitudes of christians to terrorism because I don't know enough about it - this being your first argument. For the second, I agree that it can be difficult for muslims to get used to a different way of living in mostly secular societies. I think many countries are failing to properly integrate and help them, and I don't see any serious concerted efforts to do so that actually take into account the needs of both secular, other religious and the muslim communities. Presumably there are efforts, just not very successful yet. Note here that integration wouldn't mean that anyone has to give up their faith, merely that secular and religious people need to find a way to live together in a way that implies respect for each others traditions.

With christians this works fairly well, though I would note that many dubious acts are committed in the name of christianity as well (anti-abortion laws being one example). Admittedly, from my standpoint, I think the challenges with islam are a bit more complex, but again I could be wrong. I'm tempted to say that this is because islam and secularism hasn't had to live together for as much time so we haven't found the right ways yet, but I could be wrong about that as well. Ortansia would probably know better? Are there any examples that you'd know of where secular and muslim communities manage to live together and respect each others different views?

2017/04/23 22:32, Bugli:   
This is the sort of thing being shared around by Muslims whom I know:

[submitted link]

2017/04/24 06:41, Zepir:  edited 4x   
Ortansia if your going to refuse to answer any of my questions that I keep presented to you over and over then just stfu?

Please address my questions or do not respond.

again

How can you hold up a man with such high honors that personally took enjoyment beheading Jews by the hundreds, advocated sex slavery and rules and guildines on how to achieve said slavery, married his own 9 year old cousin and beat her and raped her. Had 13 wives along with his sex slaves and advocated and cheered the deaths of non-believers...

If I am being neutral then why did I condemn all religions?

some more interesting numbers

care to explain why Islam is #1 in global terrorism?

2017/04/24 11:14, Roadkill: 
What do you mean #1 in global terrorism? Are you talking fatalities, number of attacks, this week, this year, this decade, this century?

Why arbitrarily choose a limited period of history? After all, you're saying it's okay to judge someone who lived half a millennium ago by contemporary moral norms. Should we not then include all incidents of terrorism for the same period when talking about who is #1 in global terrorism?

And how do you define terrorism? Can states commit acts of terror?

2017/04/24 15:28, Zepir:   
why are 95 percent of global suicide bombings committed by Islam roadkill?

2017/04/24 16:48, Savu:   
Why are 95% of drone bombings commited by USA, Zepir?

Because it's what's available to a given group.

PS! (number might be wrong, but not relevant at the moment)

2017/04/24 19:12, Roadkill: 
What period are you referring to, Zepir?

2017/04/24 19:45, Eldaril: 
>What period are you referring to, Zepir?

Clearly not the 70s, 80s, or even 90s. Then again, seeing that the world likely started with the Birth of Zepir, that's not entirely surprising.

In the meanwhile, for the rest of us here is an instructive chart or two:

[submitted link]

2017/04/25 08:08, Roadkill: 
Yes, depending on what decade or year we focus on (and how we define terrorism), islam is related to somewhere between 0-50% of terrorist attacks worldwide.

It's responsible for over 95% of internet rants, though. So maybe that's what Zepir is referring to?

2017/04/25 14:06, Strori: 
Another point to my statement the barbarism is not coming, but we are facing it.
There was, now it is under investigation and a criminal process coming, an organized gang consisting of top French football players, all good Muslims.
[submitted link]

[submitted link]

2017/04/25 19:02, Zepir:   
notice how Ortansia will never address my question, she knows Mohammad was a child beating and raping individual who chopped the heads of atleast 800 jews and took great pleasure in it btw, wanted to make sure was the one to do it personally and not his men. Anyone can read the historical story of Mohammad and see the brutal man he was, theres no reason to hold someone that evil up to a pedestal and worship him as a god, he was a terrible person and a warlord who beat Aisha to teach her a lesson , that was his 9 year old wife btw. Not once did she deny these things because they all happened notice how she wont address it.

2017/04/25 20:50, Roadkill: 
...complained the guy whose god committed genocide if a city or race needed to be taught a lesson.

Yeah, those were not evil acts. Killing a child and all its family members? Fine. Slap it? OMGNOOOOOOO!

2017/04/25 21:51, Zepir:   
dude can you read roadkill, I said many times I have problems with all religions nor do I have one so your comment is invalid. I am agnostic. I believe in those who seek the truth but doubt those who claim to find it.

2017/04/26 00:03, Ortansia:  edited 2x   
@Razoor you are pretty right, the notion of secularism is a new concept in Muslim world .

Note that secularism (enforced by military), is what prevented the emergence of religious fanatic groups, It also prevented inter religious /ethnic civil wars in Arab region.

So this military-enforced secularism played a role of stabilizer in multi-ethnic, and multi -religious Arab countries.

Notice that Whenever a secular government is toppled by the west,.. Obscurantists religious groups quickly emerge ( Al Quaeda, Isis ..), and then long bloody civil wars start, just like what happened in Afghanistan, Irak, Lybia and Syria.

To answer your question: define what you mean by secular communities?

I have an example where Muslim minorities are living pretty decently under Indian secularism. ( My knowledge is a bit limited about this area, so that would be great if Andorg can comment on this)

Though I think India secularism is different from French one. In my opinion secularism in India is passive, whereas secularism in France is aggressive ( Burkini ban). Moreover the definition, or the interpretation of the word secularism differ between these two countries.

Another point : In India Secularism is invoked by Muslim minority to protect themselves from discrimination, whereas In France it is invoked by Nationalists, Xenophobic to discriminate Muslim minority.


@Zepir once again do not make too many assumptions, If I'm slow to asnwer is because I'm very busy, anyway it is so pointless to argue with someone who get his superficial information from openly Islamophobic websites, so I will just give you other sources to open your mind /

1) About Jews beheading, Here is some lecture for you to understand the context:

A)The battle of the Trench [submitted link]
b) Invasion of Banu Qurayza [submitted link]
2)About Aisha the wife of The Prophet : [submitted link]

2017/04/26 03:37, Strori:edited 2x   
Ortansia is really crazy if writes about secular Muslims in India.
Muslim Indians have Sharia-based Muslim Personal Law, while Hindus, Christians, Sikhs and other non-Muslim Indians live under common law. wikipedia.
French concept of secularism encourages the absence of religious involvement in government affairs, especially the prohibition of religious influence in the determination of state policies; it is also the absence of government involvement in religious affairs, especially the prohibition of government influence in the determination of religion.
Orthansia refuses to accept facts about French Muslim Football Gang, Rotherham rapes, etc.
Stupid bitch is lying to us as usual.

2017/04/26 10:15, Roadkill: 
I am glad to see you both, and especially you, Zepir, being so vehement in denouncing this disgusting depravity, which no true Westerner would ever consider acting out or let alone advocating.

And you are absolutely right about the paedophiles. There is one group which really, REALLY stands out as being over-represented when it comes to being predators which prey on children. It isn't muslims, though. It's white, middle-aged, Christian males.

Therefore I'm sure you'll devote the appropriate amount of time denouncing the public organization these fellows have been allowed to run in your country, the You Ess of Anal child rape for 40 years, raping thousands of minors in the process, as part of their well-organized machine.

Or we can just bash the Muslims. They're clearly the only bad guys. And it's just so much easier to bash someone who isn't 'us'.

[submitted link]

2017/04/26 10:28, Roadkill: 
Ah, so you're not religious. So all that worshipping of one J over any other, and constant mentioning of His tits is in reference to Heysus, the Mexican immigrant who lives on your street, and whose manboobs you secretly desire?

2017/04/26 20:30, Zepir:  edited 2x   
how about you have a coherent conversation Roadkill? I made it clear I am not religious and do not support any Abrahamic religion, I made it clear I do not believe in fairy tales. I like how you try to scapegoat for these disgusting crimes and blame others , how about just accept the crimes for what they are and don't try to blame others? Ortansia still trying to explain away the things he did and not even denying the actions of Mohammad...... you see how brainwashing works? You think I would be a part of that crap? Again check out what being Agnostic means plz.

It does not make any sense that we live in a world were its not OK to talk about current events going on. I think there is a strong correlation between the teaching and texts of Islam and the problem we have in the world with radical Islam. I think things like these are kind of important then doing nothing and acting like there is no damn problem! It does not take a genius to understand why radicals do what they do, the texts are very very clear about the rules.

2017/04/27 05:01, Savu:   
I think we have had this conversation for like a month now. So far you have not shown why prophets personal qualities are important on judging a religion and most importantly, where you are going with this - what do you want to do about Islam?

2017/04/27 10:33, Ortansia:  edited 2x   
@Stori you clearly have poor reading comprehension problem, Where Did I talk about secular Muslims? I talked about Muslims minorities living in a Secular country, which are two different things.
Once again it's better for you to shut up, if you have nothing intelligent to say than insults and irrelevant arguments.
PS (You really should take Axel's warnings seriously ,if you don't want to get banned from this forum)

@Zepir You complain when I didn't adresse your points, and when I do, you complain again , because you cannot accept the fact, that things are not as caricaturist and simplistic as you claimed it to be, that's not surprising from arrogant ,superficial person like you who lacks intellectual strength and deep insight, to take into consideration the context, that's why you prefer oversimplification of past events to make biased jugements.

Just like you did when you claimed that 'supposedly' Prophet Mohamed Beheaded 800 peaceful Jews out of pleasure, just to paint him as much evil as possible.

but you didn't explain the contexts that these Jews from Banu Qurayza tribe, broke alliance treaty and started to assist ennemies against Muslim, during the battle of the trench [submitted link]

when Muslims in Medina got invaded by confederates armies composed of over 8 tribes. [submitted link]
Fortunately Muslims managed to pull a win even though they were outnumbered, thanks to a Persian muslim tactician who suggested to dig trench around the city.

After that Muslims marched toward Banu Qurayza tribe to punish them for their treachery and treason. [submitted link]
Jews didn't want to be submitted to Prophet Mohamed judgement , they asked to put their fate under their ally tribe's judgement ( Beni Aws) , unfortunately for them, the one who was appointed as arbitrary from their ally tribe decreed the sentence according to their Torah here is the verse: [submitted link]
which stipulate that all men should be killed, and women and children should kept captive.

Concerning the execution part, there is no evidence to your claims that it is the Prophet Mohamed who executed them by his own hands, indeed severals sources and accounts of that event, point his companions as the executors of the sentence.

Now saying all this, you see that it is not as caricaturist as you claimed it to be, when you put things in context.

Edit
You say You condemn all religions, but for sure not with the same intensity and ferocity, as you bash Islam, so once again this difference of treatment prove your Islamophobic tendency ;).

2017/04/27 17:11, Zepir:  edited 2x   
you claim talking about actual history is 'insanity and ferocity' just shows you are a zealot. Those things actually happened, paint them as you will but my words still stand and you have accepted this but are trying to paint it as justified, sorry its not justified. Its highly disturbing the things he committed and condoned. No one to put up on a pedestal whatsoever.

btw I didn't ask you to confirm those things happened, I knew you would because they are facts, I asked you why you hold him so high knowing the things he did? You still have not answered me.

btw if it were Christian rape gangs terrorizing the world, I would point them out as well, its not my fault every Islam is imported in Europe and the Western world the Tahrush Gamea is a thing, yea google that and discover the new phenomonom off mass rape groups.

2017/04/27 20:43, Razoor: 
And why didnt anyone comment on the nice DATA showing that muslims were not at all over-represented in 'global suicide bombings'? Cant let those assumptions go un-countered when the nice data is there :)

2017/04/27 22:05, Zepir:  edited 2x   
this number is almost 100 percent for 2015 Razoor? What are you saying?

[submitted link]
why don't you check out more polls and data and get an idea of why I think this culture is not a culture that we need to thrust directly into free western world..

[submitted link]
"After every terrorist attack, politicians and pundits reassure us that the atrocity does not represent the true beliefs of the 'moderate Muslim majority.' But how many moderates are there? And what exactly does 'moderate' mean? Military instructor and researcher Hussein Aboubakr explains.'
terrible

2017/04/29 12:02, Savu:   
Loosely connected to this thread.
[submitted link]

2017/04/29 13:57, Strori:edited 3x   
'Another point: In India Secularism is invoked by Muslim minority to protect themselves from discrimination.' It is the point of the SLB
I conclude the Muslim minority started supporting state secularism and Sharia based law for themselves. SLBs.
Ortansia is lying about India, France, Quran and calles herself Muslim with interpretations of Quran which is total heretism in Islam.
Some Muslims from India and Pakistan I personally know were proven to be liars.

2017/04/29 15:17, Zepir:  edited 1x   
the fact that Ortansia subscribes to a dumbed down version of Islam means nothing, the fact about Islam and its teaching are available for anyone smart enough to read the book itself, which I have several times and the hadiths as well which all account for a brutal mass murdering child rapist and woman enslaving motherfucker. He didn't just enslave women he raped his enslaved women. All historical facts that do not seem to bother Ortansia one bit, she still adores the murdering rapist with her life and submits to his oppression on the daily. How about owning up to it instead of romanticizing it?

[submitted link]

2017/04/29 16:02, Roadkill: 
You might as well stop trying, Ortansia. There's just no admittance for reason to some places.

I tried speaking Zepir's lingo (insults, all caps, nonlinear narrative, absence of logic), but apparently not well enough to break through.

Ignorance and paranoia combined is a powerful and dangerous disease.

[submitted link]

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