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Lindisse's stats and skills catchup  discussions

2017/01/19 20:39, Lindisse:   
For my first post, I would like to introduce my character: Lindisse. I wanted her to look like the witch of Fornost: she wears not much more than a dress, use a piercing weapon, and cast spells.

She's weak, but fun to play, since she's versatile and responsive. She quietly pierces mobs weaker than her, and spend her mana on lightning bolts when face to a stronger mob or when outnumbered.

Here are her base abilities:
Str:13 Int:18 Wis:11 Dex:19 Con:10 Wil:10 Per:17

Here are her stats, at level 21, with armour and shield up, a dirk, an iron ring, a dress and a hood:
167/167 hits, 108/108 mana, and 113/113 moves.
OB: 59%, DB: 60%, PB: 49%, Armour: 36%. Wimpy: 40. Mood: wimpy.

Here are most of her practices:
Parry: 22 pracs, 70%
Dodge: 20 pracs, 88%
piercing: 16 pracs, 86% --> barely enough.
attack: 16 pracs, 79% --> not good.
pick: 9 pracs, 79%
armour: 16 pracs, 83%
shield: 16 pracs, 83% (+5 db)
lightning bolt: 16 pracs, 85%
call lightning: 16 pracs, 85%
control weather: 16 pracs, 79% --> not good.
wilderness: 27 pracs, 92% --> barely enough.
track: 12 pracs, 95%

I wish she had a better pierce. She can't practice any other mage spell, since that is lowering her ability to pierce too much. She's probably not enough scout to pierce well, but on the other hand, she needs a strong armour spell. I am also discovering that call lightning is almost unusable, since the lightnings don't remain longly enough in the sky. It is ashame, because that high damage spell is usefull for her.

You all have more experience than me...
- How could I train improve/neglect her stats?
- What should she practice to be stronger?
- Which stats could have been better?

Thanks for your answers!

2017/01/19 21:03, Draugatar: 
Looks like more Wis for Call Lightning and more Wil and Wis for Control Weather.

[submitted link]

2017/01/19 22:26, Zakzirak:  edited 2x   
since u have shield spell u wasted lots of prac on dodge skill train off dodge and voila, just test it how many pracs u need to gain 1db over 2-3 pracs its waste of pracs. like i see you did get +5db from 22 pracs of pracin dodge. there was section on some combo scouts.

2017/01/19 22:30, Barret:   
If you're committed to the piercing/bolting thing and don't want to wait for a limited reroll, I would suggest training down per and training up wis. You'll like the extra mana and I doubt you'll notice the lower per at all.

You might lose a few pracs from parry and pick up pracs in endurance till they stop giving hp. 167hp is a little squishy for a melee oriented character.

2017/01/20 05:58, Rashnak: 
Maybe you are roleplaying or something, but you really should improve your equipment too.

2017/01/20 07:25, Singleton: 
I like dresses on witches ...

2017/01/20 08:40, Lindisse:   
I am not certain I can abandon practices in dodge since I fear that would lower her piercing abilities. The actual 86% is a minimum, I wish she could have more.

I will train down per and train up wil, hoping that will help a bit to control the weather.

On the thread about combo stats, Vaelrin offered those stats for a thief mage: Str:14 Int:17 Wis:12 Dex:19 Con: 9 Wil:12 Per:16. They are probably well rounded but at the cost of a lower percent in all Lindisse's skills. For a combo, higher percent is maybe not the thing to seek, I don't know.

And, well, RP is not exactly the word, but the bare equipment is part of the fun :)

2017/01/20 11:22, Magog:edited 1x   
Unfortunately, this is a very bad time to start a thief-mage. Scouts have never been in a more poor state then now.

If you still want to go with it though, here's my 2 cents:

From what i can see from your pracset, you want to be a mage with high defense and high ob (with pierce).

You do not use any of the scout skills besides pierce/attack and pick.

If this is the case, here's what i would do:
1. use mage stats, an elf with this is good choice: Str:12 Int:19 Wis:17 Dex:14 Con:12 Wil:12 Per:14. Neglect per/wis, improve str or str/con, up to you.
2. get db banded or ob banded foci instead of staff, depending on preference (3/8 or 8/3 ob/db)
3. loose the parry dump, 22 is to much, you'll want to tone down on it, and keep it in the 1 digit range. Also get a few pracs in endurance for more hps, you will have low hps unfortunately.
4. Wear plain leathers and a beje/tower shield, depending on what you can get your hands on. Shining shirt/sleeves/leggings are also good options if you can get your hands on, will want to experiment. Piercing weapons you want: brd (for your def/allrounder), nimble blade (for fast piercing, good dps), chanted brown thorn (vs spirit).
5. Keep your thief pracs to 1 digit dodge (your db will come from shield spell), high piercing/attack (every 5% in pierce will add 1 more ob, difference between 86% and 70% is only 3 ob), 1 digit pick. Possible enhancement: get high envenom.
6. You will also need: max bob, max shield, max armour, cure light or serious, your choice, get it pracced between 50%-70%, nuke of choice (bolt, fball, colour spray, max), quick nuke of choice (burning hands, magic missile, few pracs). The rest is up to you, some good options are store/quake, locate life, teleport and so on.

Depending on the foci you pick, your ob at legend should end up around 95-105 give or take a few ob. At this point you have to realize the only way of getting good ob as scout is to branch into warrior and your stats are aimed towards mage (doubt this scaling off warrior will get fixed anytime soon). With the above mentioned set, you will have decent defense, but poor absorb/hps so dont expect to last long vs strong mobiles.

The benefit of the above stats is that if you realize you no longer want to gimp yourself by piercing, you can simply decay thief skills/grab a staff and some abs eq to become a pure mage.

Hope this helps!

Edit: charm/leadership/command are a big prac dump but if you are willing to go the lengths and get charm you will have pbsplit and good dps/tank companions to pick from, if you plan on soloing stuff.

2017/01/20 17:02, Barret:   

Don't train up wil. It won't help with your spell %. Percentages are all based on base stats. But total mana is based on current int/wis. So train up wis for mana or con for hps.
The only way to get better control weather is to get your mage percentages up. Without a limited reroll , you can do that by switching some thief and warrior pracs into mage spells. I know you are worried about thief skill percentages, but don't. A stabber needs to sweat the percentages. Without stab you only care about ob, db, and parry. So prac with an eye on those.

2017/01/20 20:12, Lindisse:   
That global view helps a lot, especially since I have no clear idea of what I want. In fact, my first idea was to have a piercer without armour, so with high def and armour spell. As I realized the armour spell would only become valuable with higher mage percent, I began to seek mage spells... In the end, you're probably right, I am doing a mage which pierces as much as she can.

Who knows if control weather efficiency is not based on wil, like for example sanctuary? And is that spell usually considered efficient? I have the feeling that even pure mages find painful to change the weather.

I understand that percent practice in pierce won't change much. But what else to increase her ob? training up str? Level up?

2017/01/20 22:00, Barret:   
The biggest factor for ob is going to be equipment. You can get ob from soft leather gloves, plain sleeves, furs/hides, ruby ring, certain banded rings, high ob piercers like slender dagger or nimble blade, black metal wristband, and black-thorned wristband.

The bless spell will also give ob. You can either prac it if you can afford the pracs and mana or get a bless ring and use it for particularly dodgy enemies.

Levels, of course, help too. Enough levels will solve most or all of your problems.

More str at this point won't help you with ob or damage. It might help a bit with db if you find yourself under a heavy load of gear, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

2017/01/21 08:06, Vidgri:edited 2x   
train n per, train i con, decay call and control, get str-ring, take bob, backstab, sneak, hide, wild (max), track to 101 and use fully reinforced staff (same as bej, less weight).

enjoy a mage-thief with fang-brd and thorn for undeads.

Retire at lvl 25, close to lvl 26, in order to reroll and after reroll check what you can train n (per) and train i (con I guess) during one month.

Candid lvl 30, (Gray's char):
Str:12 Int:14 Wis:11 Dex:19 Con:14 Wil:11 Per:18.
Awareness 15/27 95% Excellent General
Climb 7/13 80% Good General
First aid 2/18 30% Bad General
Ride 4/13 61% Fair General
Swim 9/14 85% Very good General
Track 17/27 102% Superb General
Wilderness 21/27 79% Good General
Armour 16/16 68% Fair Mage 25, Very short
Block door 8/11 62% Fair Mage 26, Very short
Detect magic 1/ 8 33% Poor Mage 4, Very short
Enchant 11/22 56% Average Mage 104, Normal
Locate 3/16 37% Poor Mage 21, Short
Shroud 2/16 32% Poor Mage 5, Short
Teleport 6/16 49% Average Mage 34, Very short
Breath of briskness 18/18 55% Average Cleric 25, Short
Create food 3/12 38% Poor Cleric 5, Very short
Create water 2/12 32% Bad Cleric 5, Very short
Cure light 5/ 8 46% Poor Cleric 8, Very short
Attack 3/16 49% Average Thief
Backstab 23/23 98% Excellent Thief
Dodge 5/23 63% Fair Thief
Envenom 16/16 85% Very good Thief
Missile 16/16 98% Excellent Thief
Pick 4/16 56% Average Thief
Piercing weapons 3/16 55% Average Thief
Search 2/16 41% Poor Thief
Sneak 23/23 98% Excellent Thief
Endurance 5/58 25% Bad Warrior
Parry 2/29 32% Poor Warrior

2017/01/21 11:09, Lindisse:   
Allright, I will experiment some, level her a bit, and see how I could reroll her intelligently.

Thanks for your hints!

2017/01/30 15:53, Eldaril:edited 1x   
I wouldn't cite Candid, a character that was made ~15 years ago, as an example for how to prac up your mage/thief these days.

Off the top of my head, obvious notes:

* having Shroud is not particularly useful
* more Ride is needed
* Wilderness needs to be maxed
* no need to carry Enchant once you have your staff; decay it and get something more useful until you need to make another one.

2017/02/15 04:29, Jones: 
Pierce is not a good idea. Tain off all thief stats except pick and sme other small stuff.

With that str get a engravd broadsword, or with str spell dunadan blade. And go slash/parry + shield.
altho con might be better for survivability. As warriors tend to hit around 40 damage hits to you.

Aand you can wear dress and plain sets if you want. But white chain is prefered. You can wear it with that str.

With perfect pracs, you should be able to get around 150+ def.

2017/03/18 11:30, Lindisse:   
I'm back :) And I still like this character a lot, even if she's weak.

I trained improved con, and I am on the process to learn stab and limit the mage spells to armour, lightning bolt and transfer. If I have fun with that, I will reroll my stats accordingly (as much as I can...)

2017/03/18 16:16, Strori: 
transfer is not a mage spell and you should send me a lot of LSD so I could imagine what are you going to transter

2017/03/18 16:54, Lindisse:   
@strori Oups: teleport.

2017/03/19 11:53, Strori:edited 1x   
Maybe you can test 51% 'word of recall' as evacuation spell. Only certain rooms are destination places and they know them too.
It costs less sessions compared to 'locate life' + 'teleport' and possibly + 'store'.

2017/03/19 16:53, Lindisse:   
If I can manage to get some practices left, I'll learn word of recall too.

I would in fact like to try teleport to reach ennemies, stab and flee, and attempt to enter in a learning process concerning PK. And also because that's a strategy which seems to suit well with her stats and bare equipment.

2017/03/19 18:29, Svarten:   
I'd suggest teleport, locate life, armour, lightning bolt, store, earthquake and block door. Those are enough to do PK as a caster in nearly all conditions, and you might retain stabbing capabilities too.
Pierce is an excellent choice as the only foes you will really want to go toe-to-toe with are other casters, specifically bns. Pierce will devastate bns, slash will not. Pierces also might deal decent damage to their charmies, unlike slash. Look for a dirk or that crazy dagger from the new zones that hits equally fast. If you want to pimp yourself up with a staff - you become about twice as powerful, but you'd have to pick enchant. Though you can decay that spell after making and enchanting the staff, and regain the pracs used.

2017/03/19 19:18, Svarten:   
As for the stats you picked, they have discrepancies that essentially wastes statpoints. You can get +2 wis if you drop 1 int, and 2 wis will do more for your spellpower than 1 int. Therefore it's wasteful.

I'd try fix this by just lowering your casting stats - you don't need a lot just to cast those simple spells - and try balance the stats. I'd suggest reroll for -2int, +1wis, +1 per and either +1 con or +1 wil. When you rerolled, try train con and decay per. Ideally you should then get by without bob, or atleast without spambob, and might be just a little tankier.

2017/03/20 16:26, Strori:edited 2x   
My choice would be
spells: some shroud(credits to oscarmeyer)+some burning hands (firespell is alsways usefull vs webs/cobwebs/ice, quick attack spell)some 51 word+better bob maybe 95 awareness for night-alive-vision (credits to Gray etc) vs store+quake+teleport+locatelife
eq: metal+chunk+hsb focused staff ('wield staff 2' for bash) lighter than bej /no ruby (couple of ounces) and a light source.
Use 8 dmg weapon for backstab. nimble blade is 7
Maybe Sophia's or Venus's logs can show you there pracs-set

2017/03/20 16:32, Telessar:   
Lindisse: I have a similar statted char actually!
An elf defense warrior combo ~275 hps with missile + bolt + arm/shield, block + str spell. Turns out to 175+ defense with ebs, 165+ with claymore with db foci, full shining mail, fine grey.

This is what I would do:
reroll to
Str:15 Int:17 Wis:12 Dex:18 Con:10 Wil:10 Per:17. (Noldo)
train down per, train up con + wil to get
Str:15 Int:17 Wis:12 Dex:18 Con:13 Wil:11 Per:14. (Noldo)

with age + str spell or str ring you can get 18 str then wield a claymore or spear.

2017/03/20 19:29, Nukafuka: 
@Telessar: Now that i think of it, wasnt Telessar something like that (just half-elf)? He was pretty nice tank imho. You made elf also? :)

2017/03/22 15:32, Lindisse:   
@Svarten: It is so encouraging to read that pierce is useful -- in fact your whole posts are so encouraging! I'm on my way to practice and reroll following your advises (I'm not certain I could have enough practices to learn store and quake above the other things though).

@Telessar: Well, your post is encouraging too! Did that char practiced both dodge and shield? What about parry?

@strori I don't understand what you meant by 'awareness vs store+quake+teleport+locat life'. Did you mean 'and' instead of 'versus'?

2017/03/22 16:42, Strori:edited 2x   
if it is a thief-mage that i proposed, then shroud+burning hands+word+bob+awareness+backstab+etc

Azazello once posted about a guy, who figured out max defence with X shield + Y dodge after testing various combinations. Unfortuantely parry depends on mood

2017/03/23 16:49, Telessar:   
Just dodge. Lots of parry... can't recall exactly but I would guess 90%+. I had bash of course too.

2017/03/24 07:44, Lindisse:   
Lindisse has learned locate life and teleport, and I must say I am a bit disappointed by those spells. Most of the mobs locate life detects are beyond the range of teleport (I even have the feeling it ignores some nearest mobs) and it is a pain to detect darkies throught mounts/charmies.

I hope that with some usage I will discover how to use them efficiently, but actually, I'm a bit disappointed, and wondering if I should not try some other thing...

2017/03/24 12:43, Strori: 
Lindisse, are you thief-mage?

2017/03/24 14:56, Svarten:   
Locating and teleporting is tricky. As a non-pure caster you should really only try teleport within a zone or one zone away. Pure casters with a good spell knowledge get more relaxed conditions and won't backfire so often even at near-maximal distances. Needless to say, it may not be taking you to your comfort zone if you were using it to survive on the NOC trail. If it works, it will pretty much always put you in safety, even if you misport into a random room. Just step off the trail if you happen to be on it. You might storeport into an even more troublesome area, such as inside an aggressive darkie tower. Then the best thing is to be vewy vewy silent about it, ask someone you trust for help, and try escape when things cool down. Slim chance, but it's there.

If you haven't done it much with a real caster I'd suggest starting one and learning the ins and outs of those spells. Long range spells like teleport have basically a higher risk of backfiring than regular spells. I believe the way it works is that there's some casting penalty whenever you try teleport past your 'optimal' distance. Your 'maximal' distance is going to be roughly twice that, and you get severe casting penalties when trying to teleport that far. I'd estimate a pure puke caster shouldn't be able to teleport past 6-8 zones.

The reason to pick teleport over word on a puke is that it's inherently an aggressive spell. As a non-pure caster, you can of course cast it to get out of trouble, but it may very well backfire, usually leaving you with less mana than you need to try again. When you use it aggressively you have more control over your mana and your casting penalties, so it'll work better then. Having the PANIC flag will hamper all your spellcasting, and more noticably so for teleport spells, as they're harder to cast than other spells.

If you find that you seldom use the aggressive or trap aspect of the spell, or that you need some more reliable means to zap yourself out of trouble - you are likely better off with picking word of recall.

Teleport can be very effective in areas like Tharbad, or anywhere with lots of closables and hidey-holes. Consider for instance the recklessness/effectiveness of deliberately teleporting into the Dark tower lookout, and hiding there, if you expect a lone wounded foe to arrive. This is also a good reason why you should always have 2 ports stored. Beware though that bns also may teleport in evil areas. It can be used as an utilityspell to pass the typical 'track spots' such as fork, tmt and North gate, or to put you where you expect an enemy to arrive. There's alot of quirks when you try teleport past NOC, Moria and the Anduin river. Again I suggest trying a pure caster if you're unfamiliar with what 'rules' there are for teleporting.

2017/03/24 14:58, Telessar:   
I would not try to get any will-dependent spells with 10 will (port, sleep, charm, even store)...

2017/03/24 15:19, Svarten:   
Remember that new level 25=old level 50. I think it might be possible to experiment a bit with both spells+thievery. Most people with combo scouts stare (till they go blind) at their sneak/backstab efficiency and damage range, but Lindisse seems to be less interested in those and more in other tricks of the trade. Which is in itself a healthy sign. I'd probably start out with getting block door for the will-dependent spells, though, and only then start add others.

2017/03/24 20:32, Telessar:   
I know that, but it still doesn't work that great

Actually Lindisse I would use this (instead of what I suggested above)

Str:15 Int:18 Wis:11 Dex:19 Con:10 Wil:10 Per:15. (Noldo)
then train to
Str:15 Int:18 Wis:11 Dex:19 Con:13 Wil:10 Per:12. (Noldo)

The stats I proposed earlier had weaker mentals and less dex ...

FYI the char that i have has these stats:
Str:15 Int:17 Wis:14 Dex:18 Con: 9 Wil:10 Per:16. (Noldo)
so it would be slightly better mentals but less con/dex

2017/03/24 20:55, Lindisse:   
@strori: Yes, Lindisse is a kind of thief mage. She actually has dodge, pierce, sneak, stab, awareness, track, armour, lightning bolts. I'm quite happy with that base, and I am wondering now what to learn next, hence the discussion concerning teleport.

@svarten: Thanks for the guidelines concerning teleport. I am understanding my disappointment came from several wrong ideas I had concerning the spell. I would like to try it more now, and would be very proud to may use as smartly as you offer me to do.

I am indeed seeking a gameplay niche. Unfortunately I can't say I'm not interested in backstab efficiency... When I maxed teleport, backstab dropped under 100%, and I really felt the difference. Hopefully, rerolling should solve that.

@telessar: I am noticing my spells are not as strong as they could, but I am not suffering from backfires nor obvious failures, which is promising. Teleport, for example, seems to work well under a 2-3 zone range.

2017/03/24 23:02, Telessar:   
nod, I don't practice teleport on my combos since I think it's a fairly useless spell in today's pk environment :) meant more store, charm etc.

regarding thief stuff, you will definitely want to keep sneak/backstab above 104% if you want to have it working for xp. this is from testing on pukes and orcs

2017/03/25 18:09, Lindisse:   
Well, I have another question concerning rerolls...

Amongst other things, Svarten proposed to reroll -1int and +1per, which seems to make sense since that would raise the scouts skill.

Let's say I do that. Before the reroll, my scout skills are at 100% and my mage skills at 70%. After reroll I will have 101% scout and 69% mage skills. If I want to retrieve the 70% for my mage skills, I can put more pracices on them (or learn some new one), but then, my scout skill will drop again to 100%.

Instead of rerolling, to raise my scout skills, I could simply remove some practices to my mage skills, or learn some more scout skills: that will automatically raise my scout percent.

In the end, that reroll seems useless. Or am I misunderstanding something here?

2017/03/26 19:57, Svarten:   
I suggested switching statpoints around so you'd be less caster-y and more thief-y. The rationale behind this is that you seem to want maybe 150 or more practice sessions invested in thief/warriorskills and only a few, say 50, in spells. I was also concerned with the imbalance between int/wis which both affect spells but currently you have nearly nothing invested in wis. So I advised -2int, +1wis, +1wil/con and +1 per. You get one extra statpoint in that switch.

With that set of stats, I'd advise pouring practice points in thievery as you level up, even in skills you perhaps rarely use, like envenom, escape and so on, and limit the amount of spells to what you simply must have. Maybe just lightning bolt, armour, block door and cure light. Then you'll end up with a good thief that can both sneak and backstab about as good as any, and probably will be able to cast those spells without backfiring.

If you want a lot of spells, it makes more sense to have better mentals. But if you're content with just a few spells, it makes sense to have less statpoints invested in mentals.

2017/03/26 20:12, Svarten:   
Another issue is that you want to be able to go into melee. If you are essentially pracced as a thief, then every prac you put in spells will subtract an amount from your hps and ob. This'll add up to maybe 10 ob and 20-30 hps on level 25, if you have 3 working spells. Any more and it'll start to really hurt. So if you pick a lot of spells - well then you will be stuck with essentially mage or cleric ob, which won't work to pierce even bns reliably.

2017/03/27 06:37, Lindisse:   
Allright, I am retiring to reroll, increase my scout stats, and maintain my mage skills to the minimum, following Svarten's ideas. I'll probably prefer teleport than block door for some time since I have fun with this one, but that may change in the future.

Thanks to you all for your advises and ideas!

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