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Mobdeaths catchup  discussions


2017/02/26 21:28, Fieldy: 
I am just bringing this up, because I can not see any up to date discussions about this.

I have noticed the management trying to make the game more newbie friendly which is great! Big props and thank you to all of you giving your 2 cents to this.

BUT, I feel and think this topic is for some reason always overlooked and nothing has been actually taken into action to fix it. I can slightly understand that the penalty for dying to a mob should be greater than in pk, but the xp loss when mobdying is far from where it should be.

So this is my feeble attempt to just ask for the management to downgrade the xp loss of mobdying at least by half. Just a few sessions earlier I came across where a groupmate lost a level due to a silly typo and mobbing... the xp loss there.. it really does not motivate to play any time soon...

Please some feedback and arguments why the xp loss on mobdeath atm is OK. I find it not.

2017/02/26 21:48, Spe:   
I believe the rationale for high xp loss on a mob death is partly in place to discourage solo smobbing and further devolvement into an xp mud, as ironical as that may seem.

I am glad they tweaked pk loses and would love to see them do something similar to xp death. A level loss for lowbies may not seem like much in overall xp but I'm not sure its a barrier for new players.

2017/02/27 06:05, Fieldy: 
I don't believe that mobdeath would be a barrier where they will stop playing the game. I do find it harsh to punish people with making about 3-5 hours of their playtime meaningless by punishing them with a level worth of xp loss.

I don't want to stress this subject only regarding newbies but to all other players-characters also.

2017/02/27 10:11, Nukafuka: 
The most bothersome part about mobdeath is age loss. On a mud with endless xp, the mob xp loss is nothing. We all have our 3+ mobdeath characters and some of us have those 'ruined trophy' characters with so many mob deaths, that its was easier to level new characters up then to xp to cover the loss. Mume was never a casual walk in the park, and i enjoyed the permanent risk of loosing my hard earned xp/eq on every step. Unfortunately, its already to friendly :(

Arguably, the pvp change was needed, since back in the day, pvp was occurring more often. An average pvp session would yield 10-20 kills for some, or even more. This would allow high levels to make up for the huge xp loss on pvp death, in a shorter period. Nowadays, if you get 2-3 fights, you are very lucky.

In contrast, the pve variety was never so large. You have so many mobs to pick from, that hitting 60+ by just killing low trophy mobs is quite possible. Removing the pve death drawbacks will only make it even worse.

I will have to remind you that from every character you play, you gain valuable knowledge. Me, and many others, have been making character after character, slowly refining them into what suits our play style, and found some very fun prac/stat combinations in the process.

On the other side, the biggest problem atm for new players (and old alike), are the travel points. For an older player, you will be plagued by tps to lvl 55-60, when it finally starts to slow down some. Removing the reduced xp was a big improvement, but its no fun to sit on a character with 5+ levels of tps behind the xp, knowing you'll have to spend hours doing the same thing you did thousands of times (run around like headless chicken all over arda), just to level up, and start the painful experience all over again. The tps were put there to encourage people to explore, but all they do, is force everyone to do same tedious chore every friken day, for every friken new char they want to play. TPs strongly discourage people from making new characters and they need to be removed or revised.

2017/02/27 13:59, Fieldy: 
Matter of playstyle there. I really don't bother making char after char. In your words I agree, the game is already too friendly, but I can't wrap my head around the fact that mobdeath is punished so severely.

About tps, yeah. What you said.

2017/02/27 14:31, Nukafuka: 
From my understanding. All these systems: mob deaths, 1% xp loss on pvp deaths, and so on, were in place to prevent people from sneaking their way into the higher levels without mastering their class, and mume in general. A high level player was a force to be reckoned with, and not because he had higher spellpower or more hps (although that played its part), but because they were experienced and had a good game knowledge (even those that leveled by grinding rabbits or following certain people). Some of them were also cheaters but that's whole diff discussion, talking about legit players only.

I look at mobdeaths as new begginings. If i mob a character, i'll probably retire it, to wait for better age and/or out of frustration, then go play something else. Meybe its a new char, meybe i reprac/reroll an old one, who knows... That harsh punishment is what made mume so interesting, and only game that ever gave me an adrenaline rush, besides mume, was eve (another game that severely punishes players for failing). Some of my unfortunate mobdeaths, were also some of the best learning experiences, back when smobbing was somewhat of a challenge...nowadays its hard to mobdie as a legend unless you do stupid things (like me trying to pierce gilded ghost dead while awful, wielding only a shiny dagger).

Thinking about it, i can see how mobdeath is a huge problem for someone who is attached to a single character and/or wants to rush to 100 asap. My advice to those people is to try out different characters, go wild with their stats/pracs and have fun. As some troll once told me, level 100 is just the other sundeath, no need to rush to it.

2017/02/27 14:56, Rashnak: 
I would like to some kind of algorithm that analyzes your account and adjusts losses (in mobdeath in particular) according to it.

I have no sympathy for experienced players who mobdie their 50th character before reaching hero level, but I can see that mobdeaths can greatly offset less experienced players - I've seen few stuck in level 15 or so for way longer than would be reasonable.

That compared with their often present inability to retrieve gear after death (especially if far away), and not having so many connections in playerbase, is a real turn off for the players that we need most.


2017/02/27 22:13, Spe:   
I believe some of you, hint hint, Fieldy, may have forgotten what it was like to be a complete newbie to mume. We've been playing so long we don't mob. I mean when you just started it was hard to acclimate to things and get going. Rough seeing your first few chars develop and grow and then rip. It's a significant learning curve for mume which certainly is alleviated by those who play and are familiar with MUDS and text games but it exists none the less. I know if I didn't have rl friends to get me started I would have dropped the game after a few mobs. Shrugs. Just my opinion.

2017/02/28 00:53, Nukafuka:edited 2x   
@Rashnak: You are right about the new players, but the ones who will have the most to gain and who will abuse this, are the experienced players.

I wouldn't mind though, if we had this trophy reversal algorithm for people below hero, or even loose no experience on mobdeath (but not on pkdeath), before reaching hero. If the newbie didnt bite the hook by the time it hits hero, it's probably a lost cause anyhow.

Also, you touched a very sensitive topic, by mentioning mume new player retention. That is something that should be looked into. I suggested a newbie school before, something like an interactive adventure, where they learn the ropes and are presented with the unique mume mechanics and strong points, before being released into the world. Heck, im playing this game for 15 years or so, and im still finding out about certain features every now and then.

Edit: As mume is now, its very unfriendly towards new players, unless some nice rangers or whatnot, take the time into chatting/teaching them the ropes. I'd imagine that sometimes, the newbies wont even ask for help, before rage quitting.

2017/02/28 03:02, Lens:   
I think a new player/character weekend once per month would help get all the people who need help together in one place, then you can add in an XP boost for characters under level 21 to spike the population of low levels playing to increase interaction between new and old and get some nice XP trains going to get the newbies over the hump. Of course you would expect with the increased population there would be pkers looking to prey upon the helpless, which is also good I think. What got me hooked was my first character getting chased back to Bree by Sardaukar the first time I group xped outside bwb.

2017/02/28 06:28, Fieldy: 
Spe, I did not understand what you were trying to say.

2017/02/28 11:04, Rashnak: 
@Nukafuka: 'but the ones who will have the most to gain and who will abuse this, are the experienced players'

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but what I wanted to suggest was a smart system that would figure out (by looking into your account) whether you are experienced player or new player, and adjusts the loss formulas based on that.

The only way experienced players could abuse it, is if they made new account, which is blatant abuse and cheating anyway.

2017/02/28 11:07, Rogon:   
Age isn't that much of a factor in mobdeaths anymore. Newbie age is good for warriors - caster's can't get there anyway.

I am mostly fine with mobdeath, especially for experienced players, rashnak makes a good point on newish players.

One thing I find somewhat 'unreasonable' is multiple mobdeaths, where you mobdie again trying to retrieve equipment for example. Maybe you should only be able to get one mobdeath per X time, and future mobdeaths during that time have a reduced penalty.

2017/02/28 14:33, Fieldy: 
Ahhh, I was hoping active management reacts :)

I REALLY like the idea of one mobdeath per X time. I once lost levels 61, 60 and 59 thanks to the fact that I got no help in retrieving my eq from Mormaeg... Was pain. Such change would be a really great one.

Although, Rashnak's idea of calculating xp loss by looking at the account is very fine also. Even if management is not willing to downgrade overall mobdeath xp loss.

So, if there is really no way of reducing the xp loss for overall mobdeath, then the calculation system suggested by Rashnak and one mobdeath per X time suggested by Rogon would be really great in my honest opinion.

Rogon - how does the system work? I write on idea board or ideas like these also reach the active management from here?

2017/02/28 15:52, Imago: 
I think it's fair to note that mobdeaths do hurt new players and casual players a bit more, but I honestly don't have a good and fair solution to propose for that. I casually play mortal, and I've lost 4mil in < 5 minutes due to trying to recover a corpse--so I understand it blows.

Off-topic, I kind of like Lens' idea of a designated new player weekend. I'm not sure about an xp boost, but it would be fun if we had a weekend (say first weekend of each month) as a community event where you make new players and level up, find/help newbies. :)

2017/02/28 16:32, Nukafuka: 
@Rashnak: ahh, i get what you are saying. That formula should be fairly simple then, if total account playtime > x hours, then its no longer a newbie.

@Rogon: That is not a bad idea, and it will somewhat help. I have an issue i wanna point out though: 1 can mob once at level 1 (you will likely do it anyhow while tp-ing), then level to legend in a couple of days, with reduced mobdeath cost. If this ever gets implemented the mobdeath CD should be 8-16 hours tops (more then your average player will spend in 1 session).

@Imago: Comfs on the mobs, been there and done that on a 50+ char (quaking black uruk patrols gone bad x3). However the fault was with me, not with the mobdeath system..I pushed it to far and i paid the price..MUME's been casual friendly for a long time now. You can literally get full gear from shops in a hour or 2, or even faster, if you know the right people (and everyone knows everyone nowadays). The lowbie weekend would be cool, i agree. To bad your best options to level up new toons is by soloing. Instead of giving a percent increase in xp/trophy gain, you could offer alternatives that encourage grouping up with newbies (like equipment rewards and whatnot for best newbie helper, awarded by ainus or whatnot). Something in the lines of what eagles/horses are supposed to do. Another option would be for ainus to get more involved and run ingame events where only people below a certain level can enter (treasure/mob/item hunts, lotr trivia, ingame defend/conquer different zones, i.e.). Imagine how fun would it be to have some ainu controlled pack of mobs raid fornost or whatnot, while lowbies are fighting to protect it on all fronts. Plenty of ideas really, or newbies hunting a special ainu controlled mob that leaves tracks in key spots, while it also gives hints in narrates and such. The possibilities are endless.

@Nukafuka: only cool people talk to themselves *wink*

2017/02/28 17:19, Ethar:edited 1x   
I'm not sure how we can say that the severity of mobdeath in this game isn't a turn off for new players, when we don't have that many new players.

I know MUME is really niche, but generally an RPG that has been out a long time will make quality of live improvements to take some of the grinding out. You know, encouraging people to make new characters, and just get to the good stuff (PK, smobing, Moria, Bree raids)!

Also, I made a commitment to log my naked 672 year old ass in for an hour each night, if anyone needs help with Willow or something. I did it last night and it was actually pretty fun.

2017/02/28 17:20, Barret:   
I like the idea of a grace period after mobbing. Especially for lowbies. I think lowbie bns would benefit greatly from this. There is nothing like praying into a warg pack to ruin a lowbie bn's day. I think most anything we can do to be more forgiving of newbie mistakes would be helpful in growing the dwindling player base.

I also like the lowbie weekend idea. I like the idea of increased xp for characters under a certain level to try and recreate the feel of big lowbie xp trains.

If people think that is too unfair or difficult to implement, then maybe we could give higher level characters bonuses for grouping with newbies. Perhaps for every newbie grouped with a high level who gains 100 xp, the high level character gains 1 tp. That way maybe people will stop whining about tps too.

Or perhaps newbie kits could be enhanced during lowbie weekends. Make it so a newbie kit provides a full basic set of eq. Not legend eq or anything but an fgc, a decent weapon of the character's preferred type, a shield of Cardolan. Nothing that couldn't be easily bought in stores and nothing that would destroy the economy.

2017/02/28 18:25, Imago: 
@Nukafuka I don't blame MUME, it was my fault I mobbed. Just showing how it is indeed quite a pain. And yes, while it's a bit more casual friendly, someone who plays 2-3 sessions a month isn't going to be as well off as someone who plays 2-3 sessions a week.

2017/02/28 19:42, Ethar: 
I've never understood the mentality where people want everyone to suffer at the expense of having anyone to play with.

2017/02/28 20:09, Telessar:  edited 1x   
This is going off topic but I think the lowbie weekend idea should be expanded into something which encourages ALL people to log on certain times (e.g. weekend when most ppl are free). MUME is more fun with more people.

Examples:
1) Darkie DT and whitie DT gets 'replaced' by stronger mobs and a smob on Friday night GMT to Sunday midnight GMT. Smob would load a very rare piece of eq for other side (ex. a good whitie item if darkie is DT). That would encourage everyone to fight over DT
2) Example 1 with Brolg or VT etc.
3) Rivendell is raidable during the weekends RL. [insert random possible RP reasoning for this]
4) Weekend where Witchking retakes Old Fornost, making it rentable for darkies and possible raiding fun


2017/02/28 21:41, Merarl: 
What is fun about MUME? When BN and Orc come Bree and chase pukes around and kill some.

Going back to get your loot and the threat of rekill is fun too.

Smobbing is ok fun. Mob death is a total bummer, yes.

But will getting rid of mob death xp-loss change the game into text WOW?

Maybe there will never be any new players, even if we make it fluffy and nice. And then all the loyal players are turned off because everyone is handed everything on a silver platter.

I respect the players who rock in the game, and would hate to see them leave, just to have a small spike in new players, who probably won't stick around.

MUME is super diverse, and awesome. The mapper has seen an increase in players.

I'd like to see more things like the mapper.

Hell I bet if a Gaming Company got a hold of MUME, they could turn it into the game engine for some GUI.

You could have people playing via Telnet, some with Telnet and Mapper, and some in a GUI.

Don't change the game mechanics. Change the interface.

Someone has to have some connections that could see if this is feasible.

Remember when we all chipped in and bought a new server?

IMHO

(NOT A PROGRAMMER)

2017/02/28 23:05, Ethar:edited 1x   
People with perfectly tuned characters, clients, and mappers, need new players and everyone else to be heavily penalized by mob death, or they won't have fun anymore?

I don't care, personally. I've mobdied so many times I'm immune to feeling bad over it. I can just see where its a pretty big barrier to entry for newer players.

2017/02/28 23:22, Merarl: 
Are there any MUDs that don't have a small player base?

Are there MUDs that are soft on n00bs and have a shit ton of players?

These are the questions that need to be answered before changing anything.

2017/03/01 00:23, Ethar:edited 1x   
It's difficult to give you a serious answer when the question is full of so much hyperbole. 'Soft,' and 'shitton?'

2017/03/01 01:27, Merarl: 
HOT CARL

2017/03/01 04:40, Ruen: 
I consider myself a new player to this mud and only play it because I am a Tolkien fan. I would probably not play any other mud. As a newer player I feel I can comment on some things that have been said here.

First I absolutely agree with comments about mmapper/tutorials online. Without mmapper/updated maps it would almost be impossible for me to play. If I were forced to play without mmapper, I am not sure it would be worth it for how much I would die. Especially the lowbie darkies that I play. So the things going for mume for me are mmapper, active players, active management(game development/new areas) and for me the setting of middle-earth

The things going against mume for me are the incredible amount of time it takes for me to xp to get to level 20-30, mobdeath, lack of game knowledge, and that i am playing on 300+ms link.

XP---my first legend took something like 5 RL days. I only have 2 legend characters and I got them to legend almost entirely without being grouped. I only figured out mercs on the second legend and it still took 2 or 3 days of play time. If there was xp multiplier for being grouped as not yet legends or being grouped with someone not yet legend level, maybe it would be worth it for power characters to group with the newbies/lowbies.
As a newbie I felt bad being a drag on these people who want to powerlevel. I have little understanding exactly how to group with people. I need to be taught, and I know that it is exhausting for some of the players to have to teach people how to group properly. It can take 2 or 3 times as long when you are with a newbie because they do not have the scripts to 'lead' or 'ride' or they just want to play casually and they know that they are a drag to these power players who smob all the time.

Mobdeath--- when you die to a mob as a newbie, it is because something went terribly wrong. I remember I tried to take a great werewolf, but then the exit close on me without me knowing it, and when I tried to flee out well, or another time when my high hps dwarf warrior failed something like 10 flees for apparently no reason. It is incredibly disheartening to feel the progress that you had with this character all gone. especially for someone like me who is making their first characters. I mobbed a bn at 12. He just leveled and I was just running to go prac him then mobbed and I only log him to keep him from getting deleted. It takes so much time and effort to get back to 12 and get all those pracs. Not to mention getting to 13 doing 500 or 1000 xp per kill alone. If I had died but not lost level I think I would have kept playing him, maybe even tried to go get the eq. Maybe same idea as for increased xp for groups <25 maybe reduced mobdeath penalties < 25 or for players deemed newbies.

Lastly, game knowledge. For many of you, the game is casual, but for me and for others, it is simply too much, too high of a learning curve. I tried to get a friend to play with me, but he said he knew it would take to much of his time. If they did not sell great helm in shop, i do not know where I would get it, or MDA for that matter. I have never had a focus, never made any kind of ring, held a scroll/rock/pouch. My one pk kill ever was a backstab on some orc in brush. I have only ever tried to the easy trash smobs. one of my characters has a bejewelled shield that I bought in rdell once. all the others will just keep gilded. I am not trying to whine, I am just trying to explain my view as a newbie. We will simply not learn a mud or get the game knowledge without information on the internet, or people in game patient enough to teach, but i feel they are few and I hate to be a drag on people.

2017/03/01 06:46, Staub: 
@Ruen From what I can see, people are mostly helpful to newbies. Also there are sometimes rangers playing (who ranger) who have pledged to help out newbies. Don't be afraid to ask!

2017/03/01 11:48, Nukafuka: 
@Ruen: Your experience is exactly what older players miss about mume :( I can perfectly understand how mume looks through your eyes, how every bit of information you get your hands on is something new and how going to a new zone location, or meeting some darkies, can be quite the thrill, my first year or so, was probably my best mume period. Treasure these moments, as once you get a good grasp of mume, it will turn into a bland challenge-less game. I mentioned before, but from every mistake, there's a lesson to be learned and mume is suposed to be a hard path, with lots of fun and rewards, along the way. Giving new players a buss ride to the 'end' might be less painful, but they will also miss quite a bit. Besides that, what Staub said: dont be afraid to ask people, we are all a big family, worst it can happen, is to get told to f*** off.

@Barret: BN's (arguably, only when lowbie) are the hardest race to play in mume for a good reason (yes, even harder then zorc). They are supposed to be hard, in order to offer a proper challenge. Asking to make bn easier, is like saying they should lower the qualification requirements for the Olympics, and let everyone join in. Of course, if you are persistent enough, you will get rewarded with a strong mage that can spit fballs @ its enemies, pitting its charmies of doom against hordes of pukes. There was a time when bn was inferior to other casters, but then lithes were introduced..diff story though...suffice to know that once you can get yourself some charmies, its easy street.

I completely agree that newbies should somehow be protected/nurtured into mume, not just spit out into random city, and let them figure it out...however, protecting them from xp loss on mobdeath, is less valuable then teaching them how to avoid mobdeath in the first place...we need a better first hours experience for new players and i think everyone agrees on this one. They should enter the world prepared! They need at least a tutorial of some sort..ingame..not hidden on the site or on some obscure forums. MUME also needs to be pitched to them a lot better then it is now. Every successful online game out there crams its best aspects in the first few hours of gameplay, and there's a good reason for that -> player retention. We all know mume is awesome but new players need to see that as soon as possible, before they quit.

2017/03/01 14:31, Telessar:   
Should be a max of 2 citizen Mercs per person. It's insane how even lowbies don't group and everyone just hires. That way people are forced to group with hopefully newbies and can teach them the game

2017/03/01 15:46, Barret:   
@Ruen:

Thanks for chiming in. It is nice to hear from a newer player. In terms of game knowledge, I remember distinctly being in your position and not knowing where things were, how things worked, or what to do. What helped me learn a lot was grouping. It's tough because there are less xp trains than there used to be. But the best way to learn where the good xp and eq is at any given level is to group with a veteran and see where they go. With mmapper you can hopefully even find your way back to those places later.

In my experience most people don't mind or even enjoy grouping with inexperienced players, except in pk which can be super stressful. It is fun to pass on the knowledge one has accumulated to a newcomer. So I would suggest you feel free to ask to group and just make it clear that you won't know everything.

One advantage of learning MUME these days is that there are actually a few helpful resources online. I personally recommend these three sites most of all. There are several other good ones too especially for specific races.

[submitted link]

[submitted link]
[submitted link]

2017/03/01 17:41, Awreth:   
@Telessar, I think your ideas are great. Only issue I'd take is with adding additional artifacts. They tend to fall into the same hands that already have artifacts which further exacerbates the divide between your average/new-ish player and those who have the time, ability, and connections to gather a bunch of artifacts. If there was going to be another artifact added in DT, VT, or Brolg - I'd like to see it 'zap' someone who already has an artifact in their possession (e.g. attempting to wear 2 power rings at the same time).
The Witch King in OF is an awesome idea but would management go for it? The MUME/LotR timeline doesn't match up (witch king is in OF ~1,000 years prior to the time we play in MUME).

2017/03/01 17:49, Ghanic: 
@Ruen Thanks for the input. Really helps to have a new players perspective on what they see in the game, what draws them to keep logging on, what difficulties they are facing, and what they think of the other players aswell as the experienced players. I can see where you're coming from on almost everything you had to say. Was the exact same for most of us aswell (except the older players who had to learn the game without mmapper, dont think i got a hold of mmapper til i was 8 years orso into the game). What i see today is rarely anyone (aimed primarily at <25 level characters) asking to group for xp. Easiest way i found to learn mume was grouping. The more numbrs in your group, the less likely you are to run in real danger (mob-wise). An experienced leader who can instruct his followers is a big must too. Gotta admit that i do find it a tad annoying when people dont have ride/lead scripts since they are usually just 2 lines to add to your client settings which can be found on most mume websites but if im leading someone who told me from the statt that they are new then i have no problem with waiting for them to lead and ride since it gives me time to explain in detail what we're doing, where we're going, and what to do if something goes wrong (unexpected pk or maybe smob gone wrong situation). IMO if you tell your leader from the start that you are new and they dont take it slow to explain everything in detail then most likely they are just powerleveling and you arent going to gain any knowledge from them, just xp. You probably will be a drag to someone like that so might be best to avoid that kind of group as you wont gain any mume knowledge. Best thing is to just remember the names of good leaders who will take time to explain whats going on as you go and just hit them up to group whenever you see them on. From my perspective i like grouping with the same characters night after night, inexperienced or not. Helps me keep track of what ive already taught them, how experienced they have become, and what they still need/want to learn. But also from my perspective, im kind of weary of leading new players around because i sometimes make mistakes and i dont want to be responsible for the mobdeath that pushes the new player over the edge and he ends up quitting. Think im starting to ramble but ill keep an eye on this thread since it seems to be steering towards helping new players and ill try to help ingame when i log on. Just ask alot of questions over narrs and when an experienced player bites the hook and starts answering your questions via tells just keep the questions going and get out as much info from them as you can

2017/03/01 21:01, Merarl: 
What if new players showed up as having some tag that only older players could see?

Like if you've only played less than 4 hours, you show up as *Hot Pink*, 4 - 24 hours, *Baby Blue*....

It's hard when you see a level 1 logged on, and you don't know if it's an experienced player starting a new character, or an actual n00b.

I also find I'm quite grumpy as an experienced player and someone starts giving me MUME advice. Like, mend all your EQ, or get a Ruby. Would be good to have a tag that says my character is new, but I'm an experienced player.

Also, there should be a way to change this in Account view if someone comes back after nuking their account.

2017/03/01 23:22, Baratheon:   
@Ruen

Great feedback and we all understand. If you see me on any of my characters feel free to hit me up with questions or for xp and I will gladly help you.

2017/03/02 00:13, Bregolas:   
A very relevant old thread :) Enjoy

[submitted link]

2017/03/02 01:20, Lens:   
I was grouping with some lowbies the other day because mercs were sold out, maybe give anyone in your group under x level, say 20 or so the same merc xp bonus you get for the damage they do.


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