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Changing Nosneak catchup  discussions

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2017/03/14 16:35, Nukafuka: 
@Elemmakil: It seems you are not getting what i am saying and i am not getting what you are saying. Thankfully my ideas are in this thread and so are yours. If anyone with enough power will bother to read this, then they will find plenty of good ideas to pick from. Lets leave it at that.

'Do you even play caster to know how that affects mobility/flees?' - I've played enough mages and mage-ish characters to be confident when i'm saying that fine metal is best abs for a mage (if you do not take into account shining metal, arti head piece). Out of 15+ preponderantly mage characters, my only 2 mages that are not using fine metals+ are 2 bns (one throwaway that i use to enchant for people and one with 9 base str).

If you are having problems with fleeing/mobility i would suggest to get some additional strength and few pracs in attack. Shining/fine mails are only better if you are not going to get hit often (i.e., perma hiding behind charmies or in groups). This discussion is beyound this threads purpose though and my affirmation about fine metals was only to make you understand just how useless and limited in use, bhsb is nowadays, and to suggest you should also test faster bows (like embellished, elven longbow, yew bow), bows that can actually pack a punch against fine metal targets.

2017/03/14 17:29, Sven:   
Can someone clarify how the old backstab-sneak was OP in PK?

I got the feeling only the shoot-flee with constant sneak was OP. Is there no way to find out what specific issues brought the no-sneak change?

2017/03/14 17:59, Nukafuka: 
@Sven: Many been asking this question over the years and there is no clear answer to it. Most likely a certain highly places ainu (no naming, no shaming) died with his mortal to a scout (or something similarly silly), thus all the nerfs that followed.

2017/03/14 18:16, Telessar:  edited 3x   
Nukafuka, I understood your post.

I already outlined the situations before nosneak in which a damage bow (emb, yew etc.) would actually do damage. AND The flush wouldn't change it at all which I explained because people would not flush in a situation. [last post]

BHSB is good because of its SPEED, not damage. [two posts ago]

_You_ use fine metals as a caster. 95%+ of the casters in this game do not. Look through every caster log in the past 10 years if you don't believe me.

The fact is that you don't even consider anything outside the realm of buffing a scout, and that's why I doubt no one is really going to take you seriously.

Sven: It is the backstab-flee, hide in pine forest, then run to dt/noc/zoc without getting a whisper of killing said player. Sneak/shoot as you correctly said was way too powered.

2017/03/14 19:34, Nukafuka: 
@Telessar: Fair points. As a scout player i noticed that there's very little to no utility for bhsb since people i usually meet are wearing fine metals. Would lie if i said i never meet people with fine/shining mails and I guess it would be worth carrying a bhsb also, if you can afford the extra weight, 2 bad scout is so weight starved :(

I do not consider anything that would make the scout weaker then it actually is. I also consider that scout is broken atm and the weakest class ingame, and before removing nosneak, there are more pressing matters to attend to, in order to balance scouts out.

So you claim stab was op? Can you explain please how can you even get stabbed when target has two different ways to be 100% safe from eatting a stab? It also makes no sense since all the changes lowered the number of combos and forced scouts to go pure and use stab and run tactics.
Hide you say? Now you have a good chance to reveal someone on track if good awareness and if not, you can do a reveal t and bye bye hide. If you consider hide so overpowered how about we trade hide for this nosneak removal..doubt any scout would mind it...we barely use it as is and it would free up some pracs. Sure, we would need to run to safety like everyone else for pee break but thats a small price to pay.
Sneak/shoot was OP vs casters who didnt flush and/or had bad link when solo and in group was no more efficient then nukers for example. There were also plenty of ways to avoid it as i'm sure you are well aware.

As i mentioned above, the only two thing that could be considered OP about scout, that i can think of were bash/shooting and group sneak/hitting target. Bash/shooting can be used by anyone who can bash and has some spare pracs (3 missiles with emb, same damage as scout, just less ob). Nosneak nerfed sneak/hitting groups but it can still be used to some extent. This is about the only 'Overpowered' thing that we will get back if nosneak gets removed.

2017/03/15 11:06, Razoor: 
I haven't used bhsb in 10 years I think, because as Nukafuka says, it's simply too weak to be worth it. Using bow is superdangerous because of the return-hits you take and the cost of wasting time in delay while not getting a shot to land.

I think the problem with the sneak change was that it increased the number of stab and run scouts and decreased the number of fighting scouts. It also made stab and run scouts easier to survive with because of escape. So it was counterproductive in that sense. I told Ilie that this would happen right before he implemented the change, and he agreed with my assessment, but said that he would find ways to buff scouts that would compensate. Then he disappeared. I'll see if I can find logs where we discussed the nosneak changes and whether he actually justified it somehow, we had a few long discussions before he actually implemented it but I can't fully remember.

Telessar - let's try not to focus too much on one particular nerf just to have something to offer to V+. I know something is needed, but it needs to be done right and with a lot of thought and preferably general agreement. The nerfs Breaux proposed were much more useful and balanced than the flush change.

BTW: Bash/shooting was stealth-nerfed, I think at some point during 2010-2011, so that's not as OP anymore. You used to be able to land 3-4 EMB shots in a bash, but these days you only land 2-3. So I believe this has been addressed already as yet another nerf to scouts.

2017/03/15 14:26, Nukafuka:edited 1x   
From what i noticed with my scout using missiles is that missile % translates into shoot speed. Before you would often land 4 missiles with emb, even with lower missile %. Nowadays its still possible to land 4, but very rarely, and if you do not max your missile, you are bound to loose speed (90% will make you land 2-3 hits even if prespam). It is safe to assume a pure scout or a combo with maxed missile will land 3 missiles if fast reactions.
However, a dex warrior can achieve same result (tested with my 19 dex, 14-15 per hobbit warrior) and you can still land 3 missiles.
I think the general consensus atm is to max missile or not prac at all, if you are going to use in pvp.
There is also the elven longbow that is slightly faster and nearly same damage. If any elf with max dex/per and bash tested this bow, can confirm please if it can consistently land 4 arrows before recover?

Thank you for pointing the missile change out :) it totally slipped my mind.

Edit: I do not consider bash/shooting weak in any way, even after the nerf. On the opposite: i find it as being a very powerful tool, and a very reliable way of doing damage. Sure, it is not on par with clerics qdispels or mage fballs/quakes, but it doesnt cost mana (you pay hps instead, heheh).

2017/03/15 20:35, Elemmakil:  edited 2x   
I was talking about BHSB being OP with sneak/shoot, not in the current state. I made that very clear.

andddd actually the flush proposal change was put on the back burner several days ago (and not for the reasons Nukafuka said). You can all sigh in relief ;-)

'I know something is needed, but it needs to be done right and with a lot of thought and preferably general agreement.'

What is right? Elestir is biased. You are biased. Nukafuka is biased. Someone's going to whine regardless if nosneak gets removed and some new scout changes are introduced -- only question is who :-) One person's right is another person's wrong.

Anyhow, more ideas please.

2017/03/15 23:26, Nukafuka: 
Ok, so you are concerned about fast bows if nosneak gets removed.
I have my doubts it will be as effective as you suggest but if it proves to be, this could work:

keep the nosneak flag in there, but instead of affecting sneak ability, make it affect your bow skill (make it lower missile % or flat bow OB drop). This will make your bow slower or drop your bow OB some, if you are shoot/fleeing. I hope i dont have to mention how your bhsb/orkish bows already have ob problems, so the percent in skill or OB drop should be carefully balanced as to not completely ruin their usage...This would also mean that a pure scout will still have somewhat functional missile skill, while shoot/fleeing, compared to a combo or warrior that will be hit harder by the decrease in skill or flat OB.

If this is not enough, extend the nosneak effect to weapon skills as well (although it will affect everyone who hits/flees, if so). If you choose to go along with this, i believe it would also be fair to extend it to magic skills. On the bright side, if you hit all classes equally with this flee penalty, scouts will not be able to complain this was another ninja nerf aimed towards them. I am aware about the panic effect, so if you choose to go along with all weapons/skills then you could merge noquit and panic flags.

From a pve point of view, your bow will not loose effectiveness, since you are already waiting for nosneak to be gone, for shoot/fleeing something.

Lemme know if you need further clarifications on what i'm suggesting.

2017/03/16 08:22, Breaux: 
IMO, its is critical that any changes implemented/put forward to the decision makers are simple to understand, have reasonably foreseeable implications and pass some sort of cost/benefit threshold. The cost/benefit analysis should question whether the intended outcome can be reached through a less time consuming measure, and indeed whether the intended outcome is worth the workload required to be spent by volunteers coding and implementing, and the expected implementation date. (Given the declining player base and for other good reasons, I would argue the sooner we can see something implemented, the better.)

I'd hate to wait let's say.. another few years of for a major overhaul because of an arduous coding process or difficulties finding the coding skillls required, only to see that we didn't reach a balanced outcome, or worse that responsible Ainurs drop the ball mid-project for whatever reason (do you remember Ilie??). Less foreseeable changes result in a more complex, iterative and time consuming process to reach balance, and responsible implementors would be realistically be more likely to drop off (due to RL or whatever issues) mid way through.

Some of the suggestions do make me worried and begs the basic question 'are we looking to improve or nuke thieves?'. I also understand that people want to be creative in proposing changes, but the resources required may not have been considered vaery carefully. Proposed changes should be somewhat realistic.

I say 'should' and 'somewhat' because the general flow of ideas if of course welcomed and appreciated. Some may consider my proposed changes to be unrealistic because they are not solely debuffing scouts as was instructed. I would only say that I've proposed a series of interrrelated changes that, on balance, address what I understand to have been the 'problems/imbalance' with scouts pre-Ilie.

Again, perhaps the strangest thing about this whole process, or the prescriptive framework of this particular thread (not questioning the intention) is asking the player base (again, don't get me wrong, this is appreciated) to help fix a 'problem', being the OPness of scouts pre-Ilie if nosneak is removed, when no one from the management is willing to put forward any arguments as to how or why this was a problem, relatively speaking. I can't come to any other conclusion than that the decision makers don't care or want to share this with the wider community (and I'm not necessarily talking about rogon/imago; rogon admitted he had no clue, so it would seem that they too are in the dark in relation to the 'consensus' of the decision makers or at least the underlying argumentation -- scary thought! In any case, because we are working under transparency level zero, the feedback you will receive will inadvertently be the result of subjective ideas/definitions of what the 'problem' was pre-Ilie. I hope this is taken into account in evaluating the ideas put forward.

The message is this, to those proposing ideas: try to be realistic and think simple. To those relaying the message or deciding: please take into account the transparency issues in evaluating proposals, and try to be objective in your own perception of what the 'problem/imbalance' was pre-Ilie, even if you are not willing to share this. Also, I would hope that the 10-year evaluation process is done soon, and that you can decide on something. In doing so, i urge you to also think simple. Simple changes can be implemented more quickly and seamlessly, and even if the changes would not pan out to be perfect, then at least we have taken a step in the right direction, without immos having spent days and days of playtime on coding, and without MUME bleeding to death before anything was ever done about this. At least then we have a chance.

2017/03/16 14:54, Barret:   
There seems to a lot of disagreement about why nosneak was needed, if thieves were OP before it was added, and if they would be OP now if it was removed. There have, as mentioned, been a lot of changes since nosneak was added and it seems like there are too many variables to be able to predict how powerful thieves would be today without nosneak.

So I propose a simple, easy way to find out. Remove the nosneak flag for 1 week. This should be reasonably easy to implement. Probably, it would only require a few comments in the code. It would be easy to undo as well. Announce it in advance. Remove it for one week. But it back as scheduled. And then we will have data that can be analyzed about just how necessary it is to current scouts.

Even if the nosneak flag proves to be necessary to preserve game balance, the new data would at least let us understand how much scouts would need to be nerfed to make up for the removal of nosneak.

2017/03/16 16:09, Razoor: 
Barret's idea is good, though perhaps extend it to 2-3 months to give people a chance to evaluate it properly? Then also be aware that this will temporarily increase the number of people playing scouts and factor this into the evaluation. This is in line with Breaux proposition (which I very much agree with) of adhering to simplicity.

Telessar: as I mentioned previously, biases are not necessarily a problem. They are, in fact, an unavoidable part if you ask the public to comment on a given proposal, but it doesn't mean that it will influence the outcome negatively. Experience will inevitably influence views and perspectives, and the key task is to find a way to disentangle uninformed opinions from informed opinions. Going slightly off-topic, but this is a struggle in modern politics for example where uninformed opinions are often put on equal footing with evidence-informed opinions (see climate change debate). In this case of course we don't have rigorous evidence to rely on, which means that we have to resort to the next best thing, which is informed opinions from people who have played a lot of scout.

You may then find that what the informed opinions tell you to do is not in line with what the management wants to implement or think is best for the game, but in this respect it's not much different from any common policy process where the evidence doesn't speak to the government line. But just as in politics, the question is whether you want to let uninformed or informed opinions guide your decision making.

2017/03/16 16:26, Sven:   
Before nosneak, when a sneaker fled from battle did he enter the room he fled into sneaking?
What if nosneak was shortened from 3s to 1s?

2017/03/16 19:31, Elemmakil:  edited 2x   
I want to clarify some important points:

A) We have to start a new framework. Move on from Ilie. MUME is at it is right now. We all agree no-one likes nosneak. We want to improve the game from where are now.

B) At this point Rogon and I (and a couple of others) are brainstorming ideas on removing nosneak. But with removing nosneak (a buff), there has to be something else that gives (a nerf), or perhaps a mix of buffs/nerfs. Again, this is our opinion and we can't say speak for 'management'...and it doesn't mean it is going to happen!

C) The general process: V+ pitch an idea, talk to the other V+ for their opinions, then it is proposed to A+ to look at it, then they comment/modify it how they like, and it goes from there.

D) _Our_ general consensus about what would be the issues if sneak was removed as outlined:
    1) survivability of scouts (ex. run pine forest or shaws, loophiding, etc.) **the biggest concern

    2) too powerful against casters in closeables (ex. being able to flee, move a direction then be hidden, sneak/shoot)

These were our experiences as pkillers. To back this up, I did some research on, arglebargle threads, and old scout logs (I am happy to link them all if you want) and there are many complaints about those 2 issues. These are comments from players ranging from Khazdul and Fingeror to Azazello. All with very different styles of playing and have played a broad range of classes.

E) What we hope to achieve is:
    1) making scouts fun again!

    2) getting rid of nosneak (buff)

    3) counterbalancing nosneak removal (buff) with some nerfs and possible buffs. While hopefully addressing those 2 issues above

2017/03/16 20:38, Elestir:   
I really fail to see how you gonna address those issues without improving flush/reveal/search (which is the primary counter to both of these).

Another way (additional one, useful especially for other scouts) to counter thoro-hiding in forest could be via improving scouting from nearby rooms (with high awareness/perceptions/alertness). Afaik it's already meant to work that way, but it's probably too ineffective against high % hide. So maybe the efficiency of such scouting could be boosted a bit.

Yet another way would be to improve the tracking-into-room bonus for noticing the hiding target (doesn't work vs notracks users though).

And I'd still like to see slightly slower/more stealthy sneak outdoors which would help to counter instant sneak-runs to safety (too powerful imo) and at the same time make sneak more bad-luck-proof (random badly-timed enemy entries would more likely not ruin your element of surprise).

2017/03/16 21:17, Breaux: 
thanks for the clarifications Elemmakil. As always, the community has been helpful in providing an abundance of ideas, so let's see what happens...

One question re the alleged sneakshoot overpoweredness: should we nuke warriors because they are too powerful vs thieves 1v1? I guess I still fail to understand why the 1v1 caster v thief needs to be balanced, when casters are much more useful in teamfights, and have all the advantages in the world that thieves don't have. Remember - at some point in time, 2 warscouts could take on 1 war 1 caster and it would usually be an OK fight. I did this alot on zaugscout, and Riddar and Hezzel did aswell. This provided a LOT of good and close fights. Nowadays 2 scouts can only dream to gang up on a warrior and caster.

2017/03/16 23:15, Elemmakil:   
I don't really understand your 2v2 warscout example tbh. But as an aside, warscouts are still a viable option today which I'm sure you know.

But to answer your first question, in the end it comes down to subjectivity. For me, in terms of playability overall.

The two best solo classes are caster and thief. If a caster and thief come head to head, would you not want a more even fight than the thief steamrolling the caster?

I'll leave this quote here from Faint (a _pure_ scout thief player), arguing against Razoor in 2008 soon after the nosneak changes:

'The ONLY way this chance [change] effects the playability of scouts, is in small area traps/closables, vs 2+ oponents. Fun to kill 2 mages in 3 room trap solo, sure! But can you honestly say you think it should be possible?'

2017/03/17 08:16, Breaux:edited 1x   
No I guess I don't see why it should be an absolutely even fight between a caster and a scout in 1v1. They will beat thieves in ALL other areas of the game, including in 1 room fights vs thieves. So I guess I don't see why we should be so concerned about casters in these very specific types of situations. And btw, very few casters today move solo without groupies or charmies. Thieves stand absolutely 0 chance there, usually not even pukescouts vs a bn and a lithe. This is in some part due to nosneak but mostly due to the bare-target system. The same goes for why scouts can no longer even attempt to 2v2 other group of a warrior and a caster. I'm pretty sure someone like Riddar would understand my point here.

Also, re faints comment:

1) i think this quote just addresses nosneak, not other possibly worsechanges as the bare targeting system. I think drawing general conclusions from looking through comments from around that time may be slightly unfair, as I BELIeVE the bare targeting system and other changes which really fucked scouts may have been implemented later?

2) His statement is way too generalized. Of course an experienced high level scout can beat two clueless Lowbie legend casters with some nifty play, but in. 3 roomer, I would've picked 2 mages over a scout. I can also post a log where the scout got ridiculed trying to 2v1 two BNs in 3 rooms (and with no doors btw). Experienced and high level players involved.
[submitted link]

You could ask yourself the same question about warriors. Should a warrior really be able to beat two scouts in 3 rooms? Because that is what we are looking at today. Most scouts don't have a warrior-weaponclass so in general they would probably loose to a hitfleeing warrior. No one is complaining about this afaik..

3) you can't really compare the pre-Ilie state with now in this way, since the level changes. Clerics and mages scale better (i agree that Mage offensive spells stop scaling at some point but this does not take away the fact that they still scale better than thieves). So the casters have been buffed since then, while scouts have been further nuked.

Also just to be clear when you say thieves and casters are the best solo classes. I think I know what you mean in the sense that a thief can get a backstab kill solo or roam solo. But that is not to say they are the best solo class, in general. They have nowhere near the advantages of casters (yes i am mostly talking about puke casters). Even warriors are a much better solo class when it comes to fighting. Also, people seem to enjoy playing solo warriors more than solo thieves in xp in some sense. We have way more level 100 warriors who have xped (solo) than we have thieves, afaik. This is kind of strange if you think about it, since I agree with you that one would normally not consider a warrior an especially attractive solo class. But I guess for many grinders, it's more attractive than scouts in the long term. This is a bit off topic I just wanted to nuance your statement slightly.

2017/03/17 14:43, Elestir:   
I agree with argument that there is no need with scout vs mage to have equal chances in 3-roomer scenario. Scout could very well have the edge there and it wouldn't be unfair. Vs 2 mages I can however imagine scout winning only if flush is extremely ineffective (letting high-damage shots go through) or if the mages aren't flushing or moving enough.

Also there is always possibility to add a spell that protects from missile attacks (either aura, room-spell or a curse) as a way to balance things that are too powerful.

And also the idea I've suggested many times and which has so far been ignored: Make all large shields eff vs missile (lww, lmw, tower, ads, defiled) [maybe even worm hide to make it slightly better than bej]. Yet this one doesn't really fix puke mages, for they really need staff's spellcasting speed bonus (and this new helmet alternative is thus insufficient for them), but at least bns/shamans could be motivated to use tower/defiled/(worm hide) vs scouts.

And yet another idea I also already posted long ago:
Modify casting so that the target for spell doesn't have to be present when you start casting, but the target would be 'locked' only in the middle of the spellcasting delay. Atm mages only have non-targetted spells like quakes to be used like this (casted before enemy actually enters).

2017/03/17 22:08, One:   
How about just make sense life spell more effective.

2017/03/18 11:14, Lindisse:   
I like Breaux' ideas, and feel they worth being implemented and tested. Here is another simple idea to ponder the removal of nosneak.

- improve awareness and sense life to make them more reliable: at more than 100% they should be efficient.
- Awareness or sense life, should be the key to reveal a scout. Not randomness, number of player/mobs in room, and terrain.

Here is why I like this idea:
- I would like the process to reveal a scout less random and more predictable.
- As a scout I want to understand why my stab fail (my victim has high awareness).
- As a victim I want to be confident on the efforts I made to protect mysefl against scouts, or know that my choices lead me to be a perfect victim for scouts.
- I find it unfair to improve reveal/flush for everyone. That ability must have a cost, and the price to pay is to spend practice points, and choose stats accordingly.
- awareness and sense life deserve a buffing for those who choose to spend points there. I mean, not 3 points, but 20+ for awareness, at least 12 for sense life, if not more.
- I don't like to flush quick each time I'm standing in the wild. Knowing that flushing is useless without practicing awareness would appease me. On the contrary, with the practice, I want to confident with it.
- Scouts, with high awareness, will become usefull in a group, since they're a good defense against themselves.

2017/03/18 13:40, Zambin: 
When a level 50 scout with 106% in scout skills fails a backstab on sleeping lev 10 bn or an escape from incap rat, I really don't see why scouts need a nerf anywhere. In my experience, with sneak changes, backstab and sneak got nerfed a bit aswell, even tho there was no news about that.

Since we already compare scouts vs mages, it actually could not be any easier for the latter. Cleric in metals, high enough def, can take scout out with 3 dispels. Actually fear is effective aswell (Took down Ugurz at ~lev 90!?). Add to that, a BN can easily sleep a scout with candle.

This has been quite PK oriented topic (No complaints there), but i hope no changes will make scout in xping side. It is still a great class for solo xp but compared to mage options (eagles, sleep, blind) it is not even close to be better.

2017/03/18 13:52, Svarten:   
I'd like to see some more penalties to fleeing around like a jerk. I was thinking that everyone in melee range would get a parting hit with the fleeing individual, and in the case of backstabbing scouts, perhaps sometimes striking for double damage. The latter could make piercing scouts a valuable addition to PKing groups, and give them an option to the usual stabflee when alone, as they'd be more capable of 'hunting down' foes. No need to equip warswords or rely on slow-ass bows anymore, in other words.

Scouts should then also be the only class capable of fleeing without too much repercussions. They would also retain the escape skill. That together with the nosneak removal would ensure they'd be the only ones roaming freely. Others would always have to think about the risk of getting spammed down in the open. All combats would involve a very cautious approach and you'd generally never want to enter anywhere blindly, because 3 instanthits after every flee can really hurt, even on trolls. On that topic trolls should be easier to hit in the back because duh we're huge and dumb and shouldn't turn our backs.

If you wanna get shootflee back, well it would fit in, and it should cut down mages like butter assuming they don't have good hitter charmies, super fast spells, or a very damaging weapon. If they do - well then you also got escape as an option. Shootfleeing another scout should be painful and maybe not worthwhile. Alertness too should be tweaked so that scouts usually won't have problems spotting each other, warriors should be pretty much ignorant to sneakers, and casters inbetween so they aren't hurt too much by bows.

Maybe not my greatest idea but it's what it is.

2017/03/18 14:09, Razoor: 
Sooo...walk in groups of 3 smiters, everytime someone flees from you, you get 3 free hits?? :D

2017/03/18 15:45, Nukafuka: 
@Lindisse - what you are suggesting is give you perma stab protection for 12-20 pracs. If i were to ask for spell damage immunity for scouts for 12-20 pracs everyone would go nuts. Please think before you propose something like this. If you hate revealing this much, there are other options to avoid eating stab.
@Svarten - Interesting idea but i think Razoor summed it up..i do like the part about punishing hit/fleers to some extent though, just need a better system.

2017/03/18 15:59, One:   
Well would of increasing the effectiveness of sense life resolved the so called scout overpowering mage issue? IMO revert nosneak, increase sneaking/stabbing effectiveness vs mobs, and give casters a slightly more useful sense life spell (if possible make it more effective indoors). Would scout still have been 'overpowered' with those changes?

2017/03/18 16:30, Razoor: 
Btw, I think another hidden nerf to scouts we haven't talked about is that track now reveals the sneaker 100% when you enter into their room? That didn't use to be the case before. Has anyone tried if you can even hide anymore while people are tracking you?

2017/03/18 16:37, Lindisse:   
@Nukafuka I agree that if awareness becomes so overpowered that everyone gets it, that idea does not make sense.

I did not mean perma stab protection, I meant an algorithm which calculates stab success based on awareness, not on randomness. Level, stats, practices have to be taken into account, and a dice has to be rolled too (like everywhere else).

A 105% stabber face to a 95% awareness still have the upper hand. But a 95% stabber face to a 105% awareness should need a lot of luck.

I believe that the balance remains in the implementation, not on the idea itself. But I admit that writing that does not help much :(

2017/03/18 17:11, Zambin: 
It is so easy to avoid getting backstabbed, unless you are lazy.

@Razoor Tracking someone into the room wont always reveal hidden character. Looping does no longer work tho - moving swne earlier would keep tracker show tracks accordingly, while nowadays it would show: tracks coming from the west (in the room where player has hidden himself).

2017/03/19 00:22, Nukafuka: 
@Lindisse - Ohh i get what you are saying and this is already in game. You have awareness and mood paranoid to turn into one of those scout spotters. It will not be 100% safe but it gives u a fairly high chance to spot the scout, especially if he's some sort of combo. However, you do sacrifice your hp/mp/mana regen for going paranoid (reason why not many/noone bother using it). Instead, what i would propose, is not save stab entirely, but manage to mitigate its effectiveness, in case you sense it. For example, you sense the stab of an *orc* in the last second, and manage to reduce the stab damage by x% depending on how well you sensed it. If its an arrow/weapon hit for example, you get to sense and make them loose sneak bonus from that hit.

@Razoor: We tested tracking into hidden person with Elestir and it seems its not revealing his scout at least. On the other hand, when i played my human scout (with 95% awareness), i had no problems tracking-stabbing orc sneakers (2 diff ocasions), while they were hidden. It needs more testing to be sure, but as i see it, its unreliable enough to not bother using it in pvp (unless you have notrax and/or are doing hide trapping). There's also the chance that different code handling same side and opposite side and to sustain this, i will give stab damage as example: its always the same exact number in same side stabs, but it varies on opposite side and mobs. Would appreciate it if anyone shares if they met a hidden scout recently and were able/unable to track/reveal it on 1st entry.

2017/03/19 07:47, Razoor: 
Ok, interesting. Personally I never hide anywhere to regen, it's way too risky to eat a stab out of nowhere.

2017/03/19 11:10, Nukafuka: 
Same here, coupled with the fact that you cannot know if your hide was successful or not, i only use it for fast bio breaks (when there is no water nearby, as you cannot eat stab on water) even when i have notrax. It's still nice to have for hide traps i guess..

2017/03/20 12:03, Cur:   
Re the 'scout vs 2 mages in 2-3 rooms' thing:

I don't understand why scouts are singled out for being too effective vs a group of certain kinds of characters, as evidence that the whole class needs nerfing. How about a warrior vs 2 casters 3 rooms? The warrior wins 11 times out of 10, unless it's a troll or orc warrior vs 2 whitie clerics, in which case the clerics will have to play pretty darn badly in order to lose.

As a matter of fact, I have real trouble seeing 2 clerics lose vs any one character of any kind, unless they are totally clueless. One flushes/hits, other spams blind or dispel until out of mana, then switch.

I don't even get how any 2 characters can lose vs a sneaking shooter in the first place. Just don't stand still? The sneaker will run out of moves so much earlier than his prey.

Just saying.

2017/03/20 15:15, Elemmakil:  edited 2x   
Quote was not really meant to be taken that literally, but just to show that one of the best thief players, if not the most famous, recognized that a thief vs. a caster was simply too easy fight for the former.

The 'warrior can own a thief/caster in a fight' justification that a thief should own a caster has been used over and over again whenever talk of nerfing thieves came up. Let me ask you, does it not make SENSE that a warrior should be best at COMBAT? On the other hand, does it really make SENSE that someone wielding dagger and using a bow (indoors no less!) completely wreck a class that is using magic spells (most powerful in Tolkien lore) in a fight? Why should a thief be that good in combat when it should be using its cunning to win fights (utilizing agg mobs, poison, closeables/pickables, area knowledge as its primarily way to fight back).

Now I'm not saying that thieves should not have a chance against a caster, I am just saying it is silly that they should completely wreck them if nosneak is removed. IMO, right now is perfect for a thief vs. caster fight (and the former still have the upper hand). If nosneak was removed, I would envision maybe something in between right now and what a thief vs. caster looked like before with old sneak.

Edit: and yes, I recognize that targeting probably in the end nerfed scouts more than any other class (but I disagree with the whines that it was done on purpose to nerf scouts, come on you seriously think they thought about it that much??). That is another issue outside of the caster vs. thief balance that we hope to address with maybe a new armour set that would be more favorable for a thief or caster use. Again no promises and don't have too much hope...

2017/03/20 20:06, Nukafuka:edited 1x   
@Elemmakil and yet again, you keep ignoring the fact that a mage can grab a couple of charmies and own pretty much everything.

Sure, you could say he needs to spend 20 pracs or so in charm/leadership/command but so doese a thief in sneak and missile.

You are a mage player, you should be well aware of how strong mages are. Using the same logic that you use, i should come forward and complain that a mage will own a thief without sneak/missile...Please dont friken whine about the most OP class in mume and dont you dare say a thief would stand a chance vs a mage, its simply not true.

Please, please please not come here and complain about how weak a mage is. We all know its bullshit.

As for the targeting change, you were probably not playing mume back then, but it was aimed at warscouts. Bree legends complained to much about how warscouts can sneak and wear abs at the same time, and management decided to screw them over.

Edit: Some decent leather set that can compete against chain mails and such would be nice but keep in mind that if it doesnt meet the standards, it will remain as used as the new foci helmet.

2017/03/20 20:28, Elemmakil:  edited 1x   
'Using the same logic that you use, i should come forward and complain that a mage will own a thief without sneak/missile..'

I have been extremely polite and civil to you this whole thread but you consitently fail to be. Suffice it to say you must be a really bad pker if you actually believe this. It's very hard to take your opinion seriously at all.

2017/03/20 21:14, Nukafuka: 
@Elemmakil: Every post i had in this thread is well argumented. If contradicting your biassed opinion about how scouts are overpowered in certain scenarios is not civil nor polite, then guilty as charged.

I'm a very bad pkiller compared to some people who brought the same arguments to the table, true, and yet you died to me (with your scout) twice in the last 2 weeks or have to admit, its hard for me as well to take your opinion seriously when such a skilled player preaches about how OP scouts are but fails to deliver any results.

2017/03/20 22:56, Elemmakil:  edited 1x   
You killed me? Haha you mean when I dt'ed when I was 2000-3000 ms and could not get away from boulder click and the other time I charged you low as an orc in tharbad chief and you had key and buggy defense + congratulations?

I already outlined how a thief beats a mage many times in this thread without sneak or missile (as usual, you don't read my posts, and actually the one time you did, you admitted you were wrong).

Edit: Since you seem to be biased against me, ask Breaux, Elestir, or Razoor to explain how a nosneak thief can beat a mage in a closeable in 2+ rooms. Seriously.

2017/03/21 07:25, Razoor: 
Well, I take your point, but honestly though, if a mage fights with his full arsenal he wins 100% of the time against a thief. I'm not sure why the hypothetical scenario should involve a thief using all of his abilities while the mage does not. I mean you saw last week how a solo mage almost beat Breaux+myself in a closeable, right? :)

I think the two of you are arguing from different premises - Nukafuka (and Breaux actually) is arguing about mages as a whole being a lot stronger than scouts in every scenario, which is true, while you are looking at a 1v1 scenario where the mage doesnt use his strongest skills.

2017/03/21 15:28, Nukafuka: 
@Elemmakil: My bad, you are right. 99.99% of my deaths are also caused by lag or lack of judgement. Then again, those 2 scenarios where you died can happen, same as this no abs or charmies mage vs scout scenario that you keep bringing up.
Would you mind sharing some of your recent thief exploits meybe? I'm sure you were able to pull of some amazing stuff with this overpowered scout class...unlike your mages, that have big problems killing people (sarcasm).

Joke aside, this flaming is not constructive. I might use stronger words to express my opinions but when people like Breaux or Razoor are saying more or less the same thing, in a more polite manner, there might be something to it. If your true intentions are to fix thief, then please get the facts straight. Basing your 'fix' on an unlikely scenario, where scout might have the edge, just wont cut it..

You have good skill and knowledge when it comes to mume, but if you are not willing to be neutral with your proposed solutions, and/or take into account other people's opinions, when it comes to mages and scouts, then it would be for the best if you left scouts untouched.

2017/03/21 17:39, Nockurzh: 
Well every mage is now either with groupmate, tries to sleep (very eff. vs scouts) or has a charmie or two so we really should not compare any mage vs other class fights as only a solo mage anymore :D

2017/03/21 19:05, Elemmakil:   
Razoor: Actually I thought I lost to you guys...:)

We can keep arguing about this, in the end I think the fact is that there are two fundamentally different visions on what a thief is.

1) Combat thieves: Thief should win in straight up combat vs. warriors/mages+charmies etc. (ex. of type of combat. Breaux/Razoor logs of bash+shoot warscout logs). Supported by Nukafuka, Breaux, Razoor etc.

2) 'Cunning' thieves: Thief should win using skills like utilizing mobs, closeables/locakbles, general skills/area knowledge (ex. Faint logs like luring Mura to kill a moria group or liche). Supported by myself, and ppl like Faint, Azazello etc.

2017/03/21 19:25, Breaux: 
I agree that we don't need to argue this further, but please, none of us afaik are supporting anything remotely close to what you are claiming that we are supporting. At least please don't put me in that bucket. Makes me just.. tired to read a comment like that.

2017/03/21 19:27, Razoor: 
Well, even so it was 1v2 and you being significantly lower it's a victory in principle ;)

Actually I very much support #2 as well as #1. I don't really think of it in terms of 'X should win vs Y', MUME PK is way too complex for that. There will always be features beyond your control and freak accidents that lead to miraculous wins or losses (we've all been on the receiving end of those!). For me it's more about playability and making sure that every class has the potential to eke out a victory in as many situations as possible, given that the skill is there.

Mages/Clerics already have a fantastic arsenal through which they can win in almost any situation vs any number of enemies - block, charm, storequake, sanc, teleport all help with this. They are literally in the best position, I think we can all agree. I don't mind this at all though, it's great, but I think we should strive towards other classes having as much potential.

Warriors in comparison have much less utility (almost none), but in return they are one of the strongest classes 1v1 and so they still have decent potential, not to mention that they are crucial for group PK and fairly forgiving to play with high hp, defense and armour.

Thieves have more utility than warriors but far less than mages - sneak is good, but no block and no way to fight multiple enemies unless they don't flush (unlikely). They are also much weaker than both classes in straight up fights, which makes it hard for them to find many ways to eke out that victory in many situations. Before you could do it via #2, but with mappers, nosneak and armour changes, these options are now very limited and difficult to pull off.

This is my single source of frustration really - I'm not necessarily asking for more power per se, I just want more options. If I play well enough, I want my class to have the *possibility* to eke out that victory in a variety of situations vs different enemies. Today, it really feels like too much of an uphill battle in too many situations, and I find that quite frustrating.

2017/03/21 20:42, Elemmakil:  edited 10x   
Breaux: comment was more harsh than intended ...Meant more like be 'competitive' instead of 'win against' :-)

Razoor: I agree with most of your post. That's our aim too !!

And yes you are right that I am talking about these mage vs thief situations in which mages don't use their 'strongest skill set' (Charlie's) because we are not talking about sneakers using their strongest skill set (sneaking by mobs) in these hypothetical fights. The latter has still won me 1vgroup fights even with nosneak! Hope that makes sense for everyone

2017/03/21 22:44, Elemmakil: 
@Elemmakil: 'which mages don't use their 'strongest skill set' (Charlie's) because we are not talking about sneakers using their strongest skill set (sneaking by mobs)' - this is like saying zorcs strongest skill is running to anduin :) (sorry, cant help it). This thief 'strongest skill' works both for, and against the thief. Since mobs got increased awareness, its not in the thiefs best interest to go to aggro mob heavy rooms but nod, nosneak will make it tad less painful.Its still far from being as powerful or versatile as charmies though, and even if you strip mages of charm, they still have stored sleeps/quakes to ruin the day for the thief. IF thief had the option of luring mobs outside their zones and hide them in closables, like mages can do with their charmies, to give some element of surprise, it would indeed make a great tool :) Now that i think of it, its a great idea!

I dont think there's a clear distinction between 1 and 2 and there shouldn't be any. At least my arguments are split. I also think that 'cunning' is something tied to the player and not to the thief class (i.e.: you dont have to play scout to outsmart your enemy).

I grew up on Faint logs and it was my dream for many years to be as awsome as p(Faint) so i like the romantic idea of using zone knowledge to your advantage and such. Unfortunately, nowadays, with mappers and much smaller and older pbase, its nearly impossible to pull this off. I will also go as far as saying that if p(Faint) was still playing, it would be impossible for him to reproduce those stunts in the present mume. Noone is asking for a 1 button win for scouts, but they should have a decent chance of winning a fight, if they outskill and outsmart their enemy and yes, as a class that is suposed to be 'cunning' we barely have any tools at our disposal, compared to other classes (cleric, mage). I would kill for some extra utility for scouts like throwing dirt in the eyes of the enemy, tripping them, snaring them, setting traps, and so on.

2017/03/27 12:29, Thanik:   
Did someone really use the argument 'but im a wizard!' in a game balance conversation? You're not going to produce a very fun game if you worry about whether it 'makes sense' for a thief to kill gandalf.

Also, the stuff about 'being cunning and using terrain' is equivalent to saying 'scouts should only be able to win if they are much better players'. Everyone can use the terrain, everyone can be 'cunning'. Mages arguably have more tools available to do so.

2017/03/27 15:37, Elemmakil:   
Thanik: Realism should be an aspect of MUME. We don't complain that warriors beat every class in combat, but we do complain that clerics can dish out the most damage per second.

And by using terrain/area knowledge, I meant mainly using mobs (sneak and hide) and fast pick (pickables).

2017/03/28 13:32, Cur:  edited 2x   
So if you look in the other logs section and read the 'Peck 'em to death' log, you can see how a mage, using only charm, armour and block (and store), owns not one, not two, but THREE legend warriors in a 3-5 room fight.

Please tell me again about how it is wrong for one class to be totally superior to another class in combat in a few-room fight, and how said limitation somehow is more applicable to thieves than mages.

I probably don't need to point out that the mage of course also employed the abs + armour spell übercombo featurebug, without which this feat would probably not have been possible.

2017/03/28 16:36, Breaux: 
Elemmakil: personally I complain about cleric DPS because they have the best supporting skills as well (heal, instarecite, purple cap, bob, sanc, PFE, etc etc). It's simply not particularly balanced. I fail to think of any other game where the guild with the best support also has the best DPS.

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