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Spellsave catchup  discussions

2017/04/15 16:56, Donovan:   
About the spellsave. Anyone actually tried it out?
If im right a bn can get -70 spellsave with the right items but does it work as its supposed to?

2017/04/15 18:19, Svarten:   
It is Awesome and I need -70 too. But that joke aside, you could probably end up with around -30 if you have excellent equipment - copper, staff and maybe something else like a black cape, that isn't an artifact and doesn't hurt your physical defenses. I used to pack one of those on occasion. The old chain = 10 spellsave against mental spells (the stuff that affects your mind). You should worry more about spellsave if you are especially afraid of mental spells such as sleep or blind anyway. Else the proper defense is high hps and a good armour/sanctuary spell, against spells that deal physical damage.

What matters more is levels. I would expect you to gain the equivalent of at least -10 spellsave for every 15 levels past 25. But it might be that if you have higher-than-normal willpower, it affects the levelbased part so that you can get an even better spellsave from your added levels. I would hope this is the case, as spellattack works this way, applying a percentage modifier to your actual level. I dunno.

Practice identify if you're going to mess with embedding the sapphire - I never got it to work as advertised when I last played bn. It only gave me -10 over the -10 that the staff gave in itself after enchanting. On the other hand I could put in an opal alongside and keep that extra spellsave bonus... I think.

2017/04/15 20:00, Donovan:  edited 1x   
Brd -20
Enruned robe -10
Black cape -10
Star sapphire in staff -20
Golden belt -10
Copper -10 (forgot that one)

Thats -80. So attackspells vs me wearing all that doesnt make much difference?

Elestir, help us out?=)

2017/04/15 21:33, Strori: 
It is also possible to get extra reduced fire damage with icy ring (compatible with copper ring)

2017/04/15 22:06, Valaphel:   
Maybe the response to spellsave is non-linear? Is -40 really twice as good as -20?

2017/04/16 22:45, Azazello: 
I tested it once, but not as thoroughly as it might be required.
Results were rather mixed and, frankly, i forgot most of it by now.
I recall, that my conclusion was - it's very mixed.
It does not help vs equal level caster at all, i.e. you cannot reduce the damage past certain level or it's too random.
I have high hopes, that it helps to reduce the damage of those who are higher level then you, i.e. have + to attack, though we tried wearing and removing equ that give attack spell vs different combinations of spellsave. With almost the same results.

2017/04/17 00:01, Neamir: 
Per my modest understanding of spellsave, the key point is that its effectiveness is entirely based on the caster's knowledge of the spell. The same spellsave leveraged against two different casters can have two very different results.

As I understand it, if you have -20 spellsave, you basically can subtract 2 levels (20/10 == 2) from the caster's effective spell level.

So if the caster has a level 16 color spray, -2 levels == 14 spray, which is a 12.5% reduction.

But if the caster has a level 25 knowledge of colour spray, -2 levels == 23 spray, which is only an 8% reduction.

I strongly suspect that the variance (or uncertainty) of caster spell level is what makes this all seem so random. And also, many spells (especially offensive spells) seem to have some sort of cap on their effectiveness, regardless of level (e.g. the rumors of fireball's max damage being 110), so this is difficult to track quantitatively. I think this is a key point - two different casters, level 20 and 27, might be hitting the spell cap (i.e. both doing 110 damage with their fireballs), and so having -70 spellsave against the level 27 caster actually doesn't seem to do anything, because they were already far beyond the cap at level 20 effectiveness. Again, this is speculative...

To complicate matters, of course (since this is MUME), we cannot see our characters' actual effective spell level. You can have 108% in sleep spell, but then if you go practice a bunch of cleric spells, your effective mage_class level drops considerably, even if you don't see that reflected in practice percentages. I experienced this painfully myself - my character Taryn, at level 55, with max mentals and 109% sleep, could sleep the shit out of Arda. However, when I practice'd heal and other cleric spells to help with Balrog, even though his sleep % dropped only to like 107% or something, his actual ability to sleep players and mobs dropped considerably (because of cleric knowledge dropping his mage class level). I used to be able to sleep Muranog and his black trolls 4 for 4 *every single time*, but after practicing heal for Balrog, this dropped off precipitously. It is very startling to stroll into mahogany and dump 100 mana trying to sleep the trolls, and completely fail even though you're max mentals...

Long story short, I think there are multiple independent variables here. Part of the infinite allure and mystery of MUME...

But I do think this can be tested. What I would suggest is get a high level, max mentals, pure class mage (like End maybe?) and try repeated sleeps against another character, with and without spellsave equ. I think after some reasonable # of trials, we could at least establish the statistical significance of spell save gear having *some* effect, and then go from there.

2017/04/17 08:11, Svarten:   
For the poster:

A staff in itself is -10 spellsave, and I suggest don't embed the sapphire because 5pb from a chunk is better for you than 10 more spellsave, for almost all purposes. The brd with its -20 is on the other hand probably worth equipping or atleast having in the reserve for caster-heavy environments. Or as a butcher knife. Copper is probably better for you than a manaring, though harder to get. As for a black cape, I dunno if it's worth lugging around. You hardly ever will have it equipped when you most need it.

2017/04/17 10:06, Elestir:   
There is also new wristband with -10 save loading in the dwarven tomb near GH, but it has -1 moveregen so it's mostly ignored.

Another thing is that from what I have been told, -10 save doesn't mean extra 10 effective levels for the purpose of saving throw but it means minus 10 legend levels for the attacking spell vs you (thus only -6.666 effective levels after the level system change). Same math applies for the attack spell value. (i.e. all spellpower related eq has suffered a 33% nerf with the level system change).

And if I understand how damage works on spells, then vs high level casters save spell won't be of much help against damaging spells, because they tend to do insane damage even if saved. Imagine that save would halve the damage by default (maybe it even does for some spells), so lets say level 25 mage would fball for either 100 or 50 damage (unsaved or saved). Then imagine level 100 mage doing the same, and the numbers will change to 180 or 90, but then the damage will get capped to some max (for fb it may be around 110, not sure), so you will get 110 or 90 damage from such caster, etc. It's just a guess tho, as it's still probably bit more complicated.

I also thought that sapphire adds -20 save to staff (making it -30) but seems I was wrong and it's only -10 (for total of -20) which makes embedding sapphire a poor choice except for when you want to minimize the weight of the staff.

Also I wonder why Svarten believes that eff vs mental is same as -10 save vs mental. IMHO it's not (it probably has much higher effect). I would expect it to be consistent with eff vs poison, eff vs wood and such (something like +25% chances to save at least).

2017/04/17 11:20, Faine: 
Where comes that star sapphire is -10 spellsave?

2017/04/18 09:49, Myrddin:   
You are now allowed to discuss item stats so publicly?

2017/04/18 11:52, Svarten:   
Faine - the -10 from sapphire comes from the 'identify' spell that I used on a staff, before and after embedding it.

Elestir - sorry, had some response that got rather lengthy.

I dunno either what the eff vs mental means. I do know it doesn't make a huge difference when I'm trying to save against blindspells from casters around my level. In fact I begin to suspect it's detrimental *spits*.

A wristband from BM can hardly be a part of BN equipment set, but thanks for pointing it out.

That part about how spelldamage works made perfect sense but I don't think it holds outside of very special environments. I have rather mixed experiences regarding it, maybe because I favor playing characters with high spellsave. The spelldamage cap I however recognize and can empathize with, but I've also seen very high level casters (like your high level cleric) deal very low damage dispels, on occasion.

This is contradictory to the point made that high level spellcasters ALWAYS should deal, say, 150 damage dispels since the raw damage before saving/capping should then lie at some 300 and then be mercifully capped to say 150 regardless of saving or not. My observation is instead that damage from those highlevel dispels CAN be saved, at least to some 50 damage or so. And that the damage per spell is rather fluctuating than fixed at that point.

Another observation is that sometimes (rather frequently) a few earthquakes will drop one lowlevel mob dead, and an equal hp mob will only get bad or wounded. And this can't be explained by debris alone.

This has lead me to believe that, contrary to melee attacks, which I believe are decided by a singular attackroll, there's two rolls for spells - one attackroll and one spellsave roll. The attackroll decides things like whether it backfires, how much mana it costs, and maximal spell damage for that spell (let's assume it was 300 in the case of a legendlevels cleric casting a particularly nasty 'dispel evil'.) Then the spellsave roll will be made against that spellattack roll, potentially shaving off a huge chunk of damage - or if failing utterly, nothing at all. Or if it's a hit-or-miss spell, it'll negate the spell in case the save succeeds. You can of course totally blow your spellsave roll, as a level 60+ troll can indeed be blinded by a level 6 orkish apprentice.

So in conclusion, for the poster I'd like to state that spellsave can make a difference for bns, but I'd like to repeat that most of it has to come from levels. And that there's no guarantees, but every bit that blocks your enemies' best tactics (roadkilling) helps.

2017/04/18 17:13, Elestir:   
Also dispel evil is kind of special spell in terms of damage (it has its own specific algorithm taking into account also zone align [in a specific way], and alignments of both caster and target). But yes I remember eating dispel on my lowbie zorc from high level pure cleric and it also had really low damage, so it seems there is always chance for really low damage. Question is how high that chance is. And then question is how the more generic damage spells like fireball or lightning bolt work.

And of course there are several formulas. First one calculating the effective level of the cast spell. That value is then used to calculate the mana-cost and casting speed using other formulas. And finally the save spell formula is used to calculate the actual damage, etc. All of these formulas have some randomness in them.

2017/04/19 02:28, Ramangth: 
It's worth looking at how the original DikuMUD source calculates spell damage. There's a good explanation in the source code here: [submitted link]
I'm sure spell damage calculations have changed quite a bit since forking the DikuMUD source, but a lot of the variables discussed in this thread are present in the code from 91!

2017/04/19 07:01, Slampen:   
I get a nice 404 when clicking your link.
Please verify the link.

2017/04/19 07:46, Breaux: 
I have never tested, but i vaguely call Reikor using major spellsave equipment for a period until he realised it was way too random and no point using it.

2017/04/19 12:17, Ramangth: 
Here's the correct link [submitted link]

2017/04/28 16:50, Reine: 
Stacking spellsave with high wil on this bn, and it does seem to mitigate/save spells compared to my normal mage bn, but i couldnt say how how much is levels, how much is wil, and how much is spellsave.

On a similar note, regarding spellsave from wil i played around with 2 different warshamans of mine, with similar mentals, armour %, spellsave equipment and 2 points difference in wil vs shaman spells (bolts, harms, grasps) and the one with +2 wil was clearly a winner (15-20% decrease in damage) when it came to nukes, but didnt make much of a difference vs blinds (might be due to randomness or other factors).

My advice would be to maximize on spellsave (from all possible sources, unless the malus that comes with it proves to be to much of an isse issue - black cape for example), or not bother at all (i.e.: a low will/level bn wouldnt benefit from the spellsave eq in many situations, where a high will/lvl bn would).

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