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Kickstarter for MUME devs / management catchup  discussions

2019/04/03 17:30, Nero: 
I see a lot of interest in things to be done to the game but no one to work on them. This is actually a solved problem these days: you can use Patreon, Kickstarter or various other methods to actually finance the work you want done.

So, the first obstacle would be to get management actually involved in doing this. To that end, we must make one thing clear right up front: people who pay DO NOT get any say in what gets implemented (I hope this is obvious). You're paying for improvement and that's it. It's reasonable and normal to expect management to say in their communications what different levels of income will create (e.g. 'if $500 goal is reached, we'll fix the hold spell. If $1000 is reached we will also fix X. If $2000 comes in we will also add new zone Z', etc.).

I realize the management have lives but this would also allow them to hire outside developers to implement the changes if needed. I think there may have been concern about the code being read and stolen in the past but it's hard to imagine that's still an issue these days, and there are ways of dealing with that if they are still concerned.

So what do you all think? I know people have donated money to keep the game running in the past. Any interest in donating to make it progress? Would management be interested in something like this? It would require some work on their side (setting financial targets, planning work, possibly doing the work if goals are reached, etc.) if implemented and there may just be zero capacity for it.

2019/04/03 23:29, Zintilden:   
MUME has lasted as long as it has due to the dedication of certain Imp's/A's/V's, and their consistency throughout the years IMO.

Yes, there are always things that people want to see improved (I'm one of them), or fixed(I'm one of those types too), or to see it become 'modernized'/compared to other MUDs(Not me).

To counter what you said above with 'no one to do the work': more people should create Ainu then if they care to contribute, or ask to help with any projects needing it with an existing Ainu character they have.

I just feel if they did what you suggested, sure maybe numbers would sore for a bit, cool things would happen at first, but in the end, it could be like the hundreds of other MUDs out there that have a player base of 2-3 or already have broken links. This would not be the same MUME we have all grown attached to though in the end I believe.

What you may not know is there is a process that has to be followed, and with those processes for changes you need approvals, and if you don't have the proper approvals then the change simply isn't going to happen. Just saying - it may not always be due to not having someone available to 'fix', 'update code', etc. It could be simply because an A or Imp. just didn't approve it.

2019/04/04 08:42, Nero: 
Well, there are a couple of problems with making an IMMO: most of us have jobs and kids now and wonít have any more time than current IMMOs. Second, the process you actually follow (at least as I have understood it) is you spend time doing minor description fixes and the like until you are promoted. After promotion you get to build actual zones. After doing that for a while you might get promoted to do more advanced things. But we donít need any more zones. To ďmodernizeĒ the game, we need coders more than anything else. But the path from getting youíre own IMMO to being able to touch code seems to take so long Iím not sure Iíve ever heard of a new person achieving it.

I donít mean my post to criticize MUME management but rather to address the modern realities of how much time we have and how other volunteers have successfully dealt with it. I do like what the IMMOs have done with this game and I donít want to break that, just increase capacity so that things they may want but ignore due to time/resource constraints suddenly become realistic.

2019/04/04 18:33, Eldaril: 
>address the modern realities

The modern reality is that the early adopter generation has grown out of MUME, and with all sorts of shinier instant gratification products out there the text-based MMORPG no longer has any reasonable chance to compete. Gotta know when to fold 'em.

2019/04/04 22:54, Sarkazein:   
Wouldn't it also be illegal for us to fund a kickstarter? I'm pretty sure it was a huge deal to be able to accept donations for the new machine, no?

2019/04/04 22:54, Sarkazein:   
Wouldn't it also be illegal for us to fund a kickstarter? I'm pretty sure it was a huge deal to be able to accept donations for the new machine, no?

2019/04/06 02:56, Vaelrin: 
Elestir killed the game. There's no hope for the future as long as he keeps playing.

It spawned a horribly obnoxious noobfest, aka the redshirt squad.

People like Sjivi and other such life-long followers started to feel strong and 'badass' because they got spoonfed by Elestir.

This created such an annoying climate with these literal noobs tryharding their best to ruin PK for people who couldn't care less but had ten times more skill. Everyone eventually quit because one just got tired of hunting wimpy expers who only trap and overkill all day long if opportunity presents it and Elestir's not leading them around Mirkwood.

2019/04/06 06:30, Nero: 
Sarkazein: that is a good point but I think you can get around it by saying: we're not paying for Tolkien derivative work but rather we're paying a software developer to do some development for us on a system. Since the system itself does not make money and the money is only paid to support work being done I don't see how it would be an actual problem.

2019/04/07 19:08, Mhoghedin: 
I'd rather fund kickstarter for a social media marketing campaign on FB, reddit etc. Surely someone has some of these skills to get some new players? I don't unfortunately. IMO that would help inject life into it.

2019/04/07 19:40, Resin: 
Anyone cool with pewdiepie? Mume needs a shoutout

2019/04/09 13:37, Sarkazein:   
Genius idea Mhog, I'd pay for that!

2019/04/10 04:48, Samurai:   
Here is how you get MUME players:
(1) check out LOTR and Hobbit from the library
(2) inside the front cover, write something like: 'want to be a part of the story? Come log into MUME, where you can be an orc, troll, etc., for free.'

I think targeting libraries is the way to go because customers are nerdy, broke, and have free time.

2019/04/10 04:54, Rashnak: 
It is quite a different matter to market the game to attract new players, or developing the game so that even the old ones would stay.

In past it has been said that even if there would have been resources available, the upper management in MUME has been reluctant in sharing power. They have their own view for future of the game, or just don't want to give up.

And when they have shared power with special someones, where are those people now, decades later?

It's not a democracy, never has been. Challenges run deeper than having developers.

In other news, latest developments in gaming in China are services where you pay (often female) companions to play online games with you. 2USD per hour and up.

2019/04/11 22:43, Fieldy:   
I would rather fund the marketing campaign.

2019/04/16 02:46, Samurai:   
OMG, I cannot believe that Snakr is accusing someone else of ruining MUME. Snakr, whose cheating was so repetitive that for years, YEARS, people were begging the management to nuke his accounts and ban his entire lab.

I just got served a random log from 2003. Guess what people were talking about? Snakr cheating: [submitted link]
Fast forward to 2017, FOURTEEN YEARS LATER, and guess what was happening? Snakr was getting his account nuked, again, for cheating.
[submitted link]
Snakr, YOU and YOUR CHEATING ruined MUME. You were so terrible at MUME that you couldn't win. So you cross-raced, multiplayed, etc., and ruined it for everyone else. Nobody on MUME trusts anyone that they don't know because it could just be you, mentally masturbating and pretending you are good at MUME when in fact you are only good at some easy alternative game called cheating.

2019/04/16 11:24, Lozen: 
'Kickstarter for MUME devs / management'

Me: Hard as a rock

'To that end, we must make one thing clear right up front: people who pay DO NOT get any say in what gets implemented (I hope this is obvious). You're paying for improvement and that's it.'

Me: Soft as a cooked spaghetti noodle

2019/04/16 11:35, Lozen: 
Rashnak pretty much summed it up

2019/04/17 14:56, Nero: 
Samurai: did you post to the wrong location? Not sure what that post has to do with this subject.

2019/04/17 14:58, Nero:edited 1x   
Lozen: letting people pay for what they want would be the worst thing ever. A text based pay-to-win.

2019/04/17 15:16, Samurai:   
Was a response to Snakr saying ďElestir killed the game.Ē

2019/04/26 17:10, Ortansia:   
I like your idea of funding to develop the game, definitely managements have no more free time to develop the game, for example small changes can take over 2 years to get implemented, So I agree with you, hiring external coders to do the work is a good solutions.

However I'm afraid that @Rashnak is right, actually management is not willing to share power and code.... It is so hopeless that I don't even understand those who suggest to fund for advertising the game.

2019/04/27 20:43, Lozen:edited 1x   
@Nero I didn't mean that the payee's idea will automatically be added to the development list. More along the lines of a vote for which current change would be developed next. Management picks 3-5 ideas that they choose and a popular vote would determine which one is chosen. Maybe even a thread about the current change for everyone to gossip about while its being coded to throw in suggestions about how it could be changed. That way we could get as much feedback about all the pros/cons of the change. Of course the suggestions won't be guaranteed but at least it will give us who are active a platform to possibly spark some ideas for the developer. Its not giving us, the donator, complete control of anything really. Management has 3-5 ideas and everyone as a community chooses which 1 gets tackled first. I like the idea of a thread for everyone to toss around ideas about something that will be applied to the game in the near future. I'd hate for mume to become like one of these micro-transaction games. Lol imagine being able to pay .99 cents for a 1 in 3 possibility of getting a legend item or 10.99 for a shot at an artifact.

Edit: or is it that you dont want our opinions? Want our money but not our opinion. Sounds familiar to an American...

2019/04/29 15:44, Meriaglo:   
Not to steal the thread, but I suppose it's loosely linked: Is there anything particularly stopping us from crowd-funding an advertising campaign directing people to MUME?

2019/04/29 23:15, Benedictus:  edited 1x   
I would rather fund the marketing campaign.

EDIT: Also please allow MUME to be streamed on without 30min delay. When I did that years ago, Force told me he will ban my MUME account if I don't turn it off, so I did:(

2019/04/30 01:17, Rashnak: 
@Benedictus: 'allow MUME to be streamed on without 30min delay'

I think that majority of remaining players would be unwilling to accept the consequences of doing that. The resulting cheating, real or suspected, would cause more work for the management as well.

2019/04/30 14:19, Rogon:   
I would love a marketing campaign too!

As for streaming, the consequences for 'innocent bystanders' can be quite severe when info from narrates (for example) reaches the opposite side.

If we allowed streaming, then reading the opposite side's narrates would no longer be against the rules. What do we do at that point? Someone sets up a stream where they just chill in RD, letting any orc who want to tune into the stream to read free people narrates. We might as well make narrates readable crossrace ingame if we do that.

2019/04/30 23:18, Benedictus:   
Worse than that, dark side will also see free side locations from whispers, innocent bystanders in where, who is online, who is afking where and so on. Of course the free side can use incog, not narrate and use streams for counterintelligence to see where action might be. Imagine how cool would it be to see p Khazdul making crazy plays live where you can also log on and join/fight him or someone teaching little known secrets publicly and having a chat with old players while playing.

The rules were made in 90s when noone thought watching someone else play a game would interest anyone. Times have changed in 25 years. Watching someone else play is often more popular than playing yourself, has grown from 100k viewers weekly to 1,2M weekly in just 7 years:
[submitted link]
In terms of player numbers online - do you think streaming would make MUME more or less popular. I think you would agree the first option.. And if it's a huge disaster you can revert it.

But to play devil's advocate, I think MUME was developed to be and Was primarily a PVP game for first ~15 years. Past 10 years it has moved more towards a PVE game as player numbers have declined. For PVE, streaming might not be good.

2019/05/01 08:42, Nero: 
Lozen: it's not about wanting your opinions or not. And obviously I would be affected by the same thing so I would also be paying money without having influence. The point is to avoid 'pay to win' scenarios.

Rogon: Does this change anything, in your opinion if the stream is delayed 30 minutes? Anyone, right now, can log onto one side, watch all narrates, find out where everyone is and then log off and back on 30 minutes later on the other side. I understand that having to keep a constant eye on the stream to make sure it maintains this delay isn't something anyone has time for (then again, people watching the stream will do this for you) but if that could be overcome would this still be banned for some reason?

2019/05/01 15:43, Lozen: 
It would hardly be a 'pay to win' scenario considering management chooses what changes are made just like they always have. Community donated money just speeds up the process since developers now have an initiative to get something done (they're getting paid to write code)

2019/05/01 16:33, Ortansia:   
Pay to win situation is when for example you can go to the shop and buy shining or any other artefact for 20 dollars, but giving donation for game development and adverting is something different. I don't see how this will turn mume in to a text based pay-to-win.

2019/05/02 06:54, Lozen: 
Yea i'm not feeling the microtransction thing alot of games are doing nowadays. I'd rather earn my items/levels instead of buying them. Thats not what i'd like to see mume come to. But donations for game development and advertising i'd be willing to pitch in on. But i'd hate to see donated money being used to destroy aspects of mume instead of building on them considering some changes in the past were game changers (ex: sneak, bob, lockable doors)

2019/05/14 05:16, Millievanilli:   
Rashnak is correct.

Upper management has had a power-group practising nepotism for years.

Nienor's sister Aredhel( is married to Dain, and have had a small group of friends supporting this cabal. When ER was in it's glory days, and the V+ associated with this site were the new promised children of Mume management. The Nepo-group systematically undermined them and pushed them out....more concerned with their own self-interests than the good of the game, it was a time of just petty jealousy and insecurity....and sadly this has just continued.

The corruption has stunk so bad that Nienor herself manipulated accounts to maintain a facade of having two immos, just to protect her Uldor characters. But we know, rules are only for mere mortals.

'There's only one lord of the ring and (s)he does not share power!'

Sadly Nienor has proven to be MUME's Sauron.

2019/05/14 13:59, Lies:   

2019/05/14 16:50, Benedictus:   
lol? haha:D that's so fucked up. No wonder why Dain was never interested in community feedback. He got enough every day after work or when his wife's sister visited:D
I don't get how Nienor having 2 immos help protect her identity. Oh you mean from other immos? is there some command where immo can see another immo's characters?

I don't get why there hasn't been any major gameplay improvements since mid 90s.. Like balancing skills, races, unfucking Ilie's nosneak in 2008. Actually I know the answer to last one, he's the original MUME server sysadmin, more active than implementors and noone probably dares to critique him.

2019/07/26 18:53, Molwynog: 
Seems pretty simple to setup an Ad on FB.

2019/07/26 18:58, Molwynog: 
[submitted link]

2019/07/26 19:56, Sarkazein:   
I'm not gonna lie, the idea of TwitchMUME got me incredibly excited. I'd love to watch someone pull some extreme shenanigans live, where I can learn how they play or how their client is set up.

I've always been interested in how other's clients are set up; I play with no highlights, no hotkeys, very very few multi-command actions, and only basically a targeting system someone else made.

It would also cut down on cheating, because who's going to stream themselves cheating?

2019/09/06 05:01, Ramangth: 
Wait a minute. p(Uldor) is p(Nienor)? Wow I never would have guessed. I played with Uldor quite a bit back in the day and he (she?) was cagey whenever I tried to figure out who else they played, although I distinctly remember Uldor saying that I would be surprised if I knew. Based on that, and given when I saw him playing, I always assumed he was an old US player that everyone thought left, but still secretly played - my guess was p(Steele).

I'd love to know more about the machinations of imms back in those days. I remember there being a lot of drama about Tulkas but I never knew the details. Did other A+ actually play non-imm characters?

2019/09/06 10:39, Carl: 
I have tried to ask for permission to stream LIVE on Twitch. The Ainu will never allow it as it gives live access to cross race information.

As for simple video recording, that's just not the same as you do not get viewer input i.e. questions, comments, etc. that NEW viewers would need to have answered if they were to join in the community.
The MUME learning curb is very steep.

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