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The Culture and Economy of Trolls in Mume catchup  discussions

2019/10/25 12:11, Dawnborn:  edited 1x   
Trolls clearly have a pretty solid culture. They have a strong family life and associated family values. They maintain mulitgenerational family structures that aid in the raising of young and appear to be matriarchal in organization.

From an economic standpoint, they must have access to resources and manufactured goods beyond simply raiding. There is troll sized clothing, armor, weapons and arguably other things like cooking equipment. This suggests either troll artisans, or dedicated economy from other dark races, likely orcs who trade with trolls for gold things captured in raids. In at least one case (Bent and Drooling Troll) we see a likely (former) troll artisan.

They have engineering skills. Even if they can't describe it in complex terms, trolls have an ability to build and maintain complex underground structures in a variety of locations ranging from hard rock to soft soil. They have a demonstrated ability to shore and brace up these tunnels and even install doors and barriers. From time to time they may also use tools in this endeavor, which again brings us back to the economy of troll sized equipment and clothing.

Somewhere in Arda there are workshops or trading posts providing the manufactured goods trolls require. Now wouldn't that be an interesting zone? It likely would be a mixed orc-troll area with workshops, storehouses and the like. Perhaps some orc and troll families settled in the area too, as they are likely to be isolated enough from the main war to be somewhat safe for non combatants.

Either way, there are a lot of implied things about trolls as if they and all their material goods and culture simply are, without any visible or stated means of support. I think expounding on this, and doing the same for other races could add an interesting level of play beyond the usual.

2019/10/25 13:43, Rashnak: 
'troll sized equipment'

Actually no. There is no troll-sized equipment per se, only nosized equipment - stuff that loads in ground or containers, and which for game technical reasons remains unsized, fitting all, until someone wears it the first time. Even troll-sized equipment that loads on Muranog or other mighty trolls, could be argued to have once belonged to this category.

'ability to shore and brace up these tunnels and even install doors and barriers'

Well, much lesser lifeforms are capable of both digging tunnels and creating doors to them. Spiders, certain aquatic species, and soilworms come to mind.

But I give you the family structures.

2019/10/25 14:15, Dawnborn:   
I dislike the hand waving of 'no size' equipment. Especially as in LOTR there are trolls equipped with bespoke gear for them. It's a handy mechanism in game, but ignores the reality and I'd say deeper back story that could exist.

And yes, lots of things in nature can tunnel, but trolls seem to demonstrate a higher level of tunneling than that of tunneling animals and insects.

I must be too bored to think of this stuff, but I've always thought some backstory was missing on a lot of things that could enrich the game.

2019/10/25 14:38, Zintilden:   
It was fun times back in the day waiting for trolls to run to DT to mend! Lots more fights happened there back then IMO and I do not believe it was only because of a higher playerbase.

Shovel work is grunt work. Tunnels are not elaborate. Can't really imagine troll family packs constructing town or village unless they were there as grunts helping the Orcs.

2019/10/25 14:45, Dawnborn:   
Tunnels aren't elaborate, but there are room descriptions with timber shoring and even troll sized doors with metal hinges.

No, I don't think troll packs would make a village or live above ground in one. I can see them living in nearby caves or tunnels if this theorized trading post complex existed. Probably the orcs would operate there because of a troll presence, and possibly because the trolls came there to trade looted goods. So some sort of centrally located place where trolls could bring loot to trade for things they couldn't make.

Honestly most of these same thoughts applied to trolls could be expanded to other races. But trolls have been reduced to both this complex social organization and completely ignored economic organization. They carry money, they exchange money for rent. They have material goods beyond what could rationally be explained through raiding, and some indications in their oral histories of an understanding of the world beyond what could be achieved through raids and wars.

2019/10/25 16:15, Zintilden:   
Sounds like a safe spot! What is your selling point to make this idea of yours a pk spot that isnt so safe for them? Or to entice wimpy vomits/greedy Zaug to enter? 8)

2019/10/25 17:35, Andróg:   
I would say that in Tolkien's world the place closest to MUME's Trollshaws with something like what you're describing is likely Mount Gundabad area and the Mountains of Angmar. However... even these are like 10 zones or so from the nearest location that actually exists in MUME, so it would take a huge effort and several superzones worth of planning to get there.

2019/10/25 18:31, Dawnborn:   
Zint it doesn't have to be a 'safe' spot. Besides, the wants of Zorcs are meaningless :p

Seriously though, a spot like this could be as safe or unsafe as it was written. There might be safer areas, or even ideally a rent spot for trolls and the more civilized tribes of orcs, but there any any number of ways to run it off to be PK friendly.

Androg, yeah... that's the problem. It would have to be a pretty fictional thing or an add on to a different area. Hell a few rooms running off Brolg could even provide that 'trading post' thing without getting as complex as it could be.

2019/10/25 22:43, Zintilden:   
It has nothing to do with Zorcs. I just could barely see Management doing something like this if it appeared to be just another safer spot for Trolls(big or small area, in this case size probably would not matter much!).

To justify an idea like this you should supply a lot more support.

If I was going to fight/justify/argue for anything for Minions, it would be for BN's anyhow, smartypantz.

2019/10/25 23:35, Vidgri: 
I reached here at last by a long hard road, up the Hoarwell and through the Ettenmoors, and down from the north. It took me nearly fourteen days from Weathertop, for I could not ride among the rocks of the troll-fells, and Shadowfax departed. LotR

2019/10/26 00:58, Dawnborn:   
I was trying to be snarky about Zorcs and failing. I don't have the patience to level one, would be nice to see them thrown a bone TBH.

I'm not even really pitching an idea so much as thinking out loud. When I get off my ass and level an immo I'll work up a better pitch. Mainly I was thinking how there is a huge implied socio-economic system for trolls that is really not shown at all. At least most other races have some token gestures to it.

Speaking of BN's, this hypothetical trade center could be a possible boon for BN's. Mebbe even a real bed to rent, and certainly a place to mend armor/gear.

2019/10/26 02:17, Carl: 
Some kind of way for trolls to become like nasty hobbitses with shops? No thanks, Troll's don't need shops.

If anything, JUST to change troll pk; perhaps a rent spot close to the new mirkwood zone to allow trolls to wander around easily. Heck, it could involve a troll quest to make it difficult/impossible with digging a hole with the shovel and lots of hobbit corpses to entice troll mobs to come live in there.

2019/10/26 02:40, Dawnborn:   
Trolls don't NEED shops, I agree they do need more rent spots. I think any place with a friendly troll population should be rentable by default.

I also think the socio-political organization of the troll race is worth examining at least from a thought experiment point of view. It's there, it has to exist, but it's mostly just assumed. Otherwise sooner or later you'll get another Smiles log and he'll be muttering to himself about elfie things like political economy after getting too close to the evil yellow eye.

2019/10/26 03:23, Zintilden:   
Zaugs don't need a bone IMO. Only thing they could use is a single prac in steal just to be able to check inventories and to be able to cart gold for credit.

If anything I would try to gain more mob interaction/fun stuff to help stir trouble that could also help players in a way. Such as: Tarks or BN's being able to bribe the ZOC tark patrols into helping them with clearing ZOC to release the mender. There used to be insane ZOC raids and you didnt dare come back to ZOC without checking if Bulgotha alive, because you never knew what was there waiting for you. Those days are gone, and although I don't play Tarks or BN's that wear shining, I think it is very unbalanced right now with how they manage ZOC when a group of Zaugs are on otherwise. I think I have seen only few ZOC raids since I have been back that were actually successful while players were on Zaug. It has to suck to carry around shining, waiting to mend forever for a group to log to help, or they just can't play those characters until that time that help logs on or they would die moveless most likely trying to play that way. Or they have to simply wait until those Zaug players are logged off.

It would be cool to see a small quest for Zaugs that trigger an officer patrol to go NOC area and stir up trouble with those of the tark patrols (which would encourage more pk in that area with the assistance of mobs helping either tribe etc). Another idea is a small quest that has some mobs generate to protect the mender once released, or maybe a BN could trigger it in a quest type way.

BN's are Nomads, so I can't imagine them being able to rent the way others do TBH. One thing I would support on BN's though is that they get a little more pick and missile practices, and to get rid of them having to group Trolls and Tarks. That whole thing made sense back in the day probably, but now days it doesn't and it is not really fair for those few playing darkies. It is not very RPish IMO either.

In re renting areas for Trolls near the new zones: that is just a trail area leading to something bigger and maybe we will be surprised when DG opens with such things? We will have to wait in anticipation and hope for now though. I also hope there are some puke outposts put there so that more pukes also go to the area and feel they have a place to at least regen at safer (this is a problem in Emyn IMO and why people are scared to go in to even learn it). Would be a simple fix to add an outpost, or trigger again another mini quest where some small camp was built by puke mobs while they were trying to dispel the evil stirring there etc.

Vidgri - It is nice to see a post like that from you after the last few weeks and I hope you keep it up! 8)

2019/10/27 14:38, Vidgri: 
Once I saw a troll leading bn with 2 mountain troll charmies, that looked bloody scaring

2019/10/27 17:30, Moonglum:   
Without reading the whole thread, one small change would be great for trolls and pk in general .. perma-dark rooms from warrens to OER near ford. Just fill in many of the 'sunlit' gaps. MAYBE link BBT and EP with permadark routes too. That might be a bit much but you get the idea.

2019/10/28 20:59, Elestir:   
@Moonglum The zones outside Warrens are all so open that any PK there is pretty much pointless. So first they would have to rebuild it. But it could indeed be fun if trolls had place they can PK during days outside of Warrens, as inside Warrens they get too big advantage so their enemies often refuse to fight them there.

2019/10/28 21:19, Zintilden:  edited 1x   
Last I checked there are plenty of dark areas to fight in directly around warrens, near warrens, closeables with even more troll mobs.

On another note/question: The rumor back in the day when I was actively playing bn casters only, was that curse/corrupting necklace caused darkness. The more you corrupted, the more that Sauron unleashed darkness (which back then caused global darkness as Trolls would say). Real or unreal?

If this is real and not a bad rumor, I suggest you send your Bns forth and create it again. The necklaces arent hard to get even when not looted off a corpse. We used to save them and corrupt 5-10 of them at a time, with several bns in there working before going west back in the day with shovel. The darkness we got after (within 10-15 minutes) always seemed massive and it appeared to be truth or impeccable timing.

Anyone willing to comment in regards to this rumor that actually can give an absolute answer?

Maybe if this is broke it could be fixed. If rumor, maybe it could become truth to give these guys something to do that helps them out, and also community effort would be fun?

2019/10/28 22:52, Elestir:   
@Zintilden We were talking about dark area directly connected to Warrens. There are some indoor areas around, but they are disconnected. And their PK potential is near zero anyway. But in general, the area between OER and Warrens is too open so everyone with normal link and half a brain gets away anytime he wants. Why bother PKing in such area? Almost as pointless as chasing someone near Anduin. If the Trollshaws were bit more alike Emyn areas, it would be much more interesting place to PK at.

2019/10/28 23:02, Carl: 
It's a shame there isn't more of a reason for trolls to stay around their home. Troll's don't have the slightest reason to stay within their caves/forests. BBT never happens.

What would be amazing if the amount of areas that are like BBT would increase. I would love if Troll's had more opportunities to sit and wait for things to come during the summer months.

2019/10/28 23:14, Zintilden:   
Yes, I know what you meant, that was my disagreement post to it.

I had a solution for this without adding the yellow brick road from Point A to Point B:

Simply add 5 root locations per zone from Priest to Rivendell. 5 Roots in each zone that are mudlled to randomly load in different rooms. (I don't mean just loading in the same few spots so it is easy to mark on mmapper either). I mean those 5 locations per zone are just random each pop and never the same (could be specifically coded to not appear on trails I suppose, which would force people to use the trail and have some kind of exit strat I guess).

Roots can grow anywhere, especially in any of those zones I mention, so it is justified by that in itself IMO. This would help in many ways, and it is in a pk area too, so one can't really say it is too risky to do such a thing, as it would only be placed in one of the highest pk areas of the game.

For the people that would say 'no way, this would be bullshit': Its bullshit we all need herblores/bob/draughts and are mobile AF too. I would also suggest the Ainur make a horn quest for each side of the war to gain in a fun way if something was done like this, just so there are no tears shed over it if it happened.

More roots (and randomly so maps can't keep up with them), more containment, less running without a care in the world would be excellent indeed!

2019/10/29 05:11, Rashnak: 
I'm doubtful whether it is possible to make the areas between Warrens and OER more interesting for PK (as in less open) without the side effect of making it more difficult for trolls to return home from fights taking place around Rivendell or Brolg, especially when it's close to sunrise.

I smell an underlying sentiment to make such fights more deadly mainly for trolls themselves. Other races are not equally pressed on time by risk of realdeath.

2019/10/29 05:41, Elestir:   
@Rashnak It wouldn't be such an issue if those less open areas were dark (e.g. dark forests, much like the forest directly above Warrens, but not so open).

2019/10/29 12:18, Zintilden:   
Pukes dont really fight around Warrens as it is lately, unless maybe someone is doing sqt. Although I agree to many more bottlenecks around Arda as a whole, this would discourage fights even more above warrens from pukes point of view imo.

2019/10/29 16:56, Elestir:   
As I already explained, fighting around Warrens is pretty much pointless, because the area is too open. So no wonder pukes aren't pking there much either. Perhaps you are right and more bottlenecks would scare away non-pkers from that area but on the other hand it would attract pkers to that area. No bottlenecks around Warrens makes e.g. chasing Troll who is running home and is not too far to make it, yet again pretty much pointless, unless you intend to fight him at Grinder. So this lack of bottlenecks affects a lot more than just PK around Warrens. Even with bottlenecks, you have to catch up with your enemy, and then bottlenecks still do not guarantee he wont flee anyway (more skilled players will almost always do anyway). Without bottlenecks, you are almost certain he makes it Grinder, skilled or not.

2019/10/30 00:05, Zintilden:   
I don't think pukes go there because it takes a certain type of group that wants to take on trolls around and inside warrens in the first place, and I don't believe groups like this are around. Most solo players don't want to mess around with trolls there either. So my point also was that I don't think it matters what you do there, Player Trolls to these pukes now days are scary. If you add more dark rooms for Trolls, or bottlenecks for pkers, it will not make a difference in my opinion because the will to fight there for pukes is rare these days. Although it may be nicer for trolls to fight, SURE, but the fight you speak of is non existent.

Also, I have been on the flip side of this while playing puke too: Where a decent puke sized group goes to Warrens to fight LOW DARKIES, and they instead stand outside hatch *cough*. So it will not make a difference IMO. :P

Peace! Done posting here!

2019/10/30 00:48, One:   
I agree zintilden, I’ll chase a bn or orc into warrens, but I won’t hang around with a troll there.

2019/10/30 10:04, Rashnak: 
One thing that I might consider, is limiting the ways from OER/RD area into Trollshaws, so that it would be easier to track whether someone went to the generic area or elsewhere. Now, especially on foot, there are way too many rooms to cover without slowtracking or doing it at entrances to Warrens.

I'd prefer to see it more like the route from RD to NOC - you only need to track in few rooms to get a generic idea whether someone went that way (or the opposite) or not.

If more bottlenecks would be added, I'd hope there would also be more noride rooms and ways to lose mounts, even without climb exits.

But overall, I think there is no major need to do anything about Trollshaws. Resources better spent elsewhere. Might be biased because I was involved in the previous Warrens move project.

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