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Message 2573 : The tomb of the Chieftain of Belegost (Rogon) catchup  discussions

2019/10/26 15:45, Ryalnos:   
Message 2573 : The tomb of the Chieftain of Belegost (Rogon)
Written on Sat Oct 26 14:42:04 2019

As a result of the notable lack of interest for this area, we have after years
of careful consideration and planning, decided to take action.

Multiple changes have been made to the area to alleviate the reasons for the
mentioned disinterest.

The treasures to be found have undergone improvements, the area has been made
somewhat more accessible, and several changes have been made to make the
puzzles found within easier to grasp.

We encourage adventurers to explore carefully.


Design...... Rogon, Arfang, Antti
Coding...... Arfang
Reviews..... Imago, Fror
Misc help... Jahara

2019/10/26 16:51, Agarwaen: 
Good. Hope its actually worth it now.

2019/10/31 07:40, Osilin: 
Was the loot or exp of that place not good enough? What about now?

2019/10/31 15:22, Spe:   
Letís just say that thereís an improvement. The rewards certainly arenít overpowered which is good considering only pukes can get in (more or less). Itís a tall task for management to create items that are both enticing to players and not overpowered. We as players are probably spoiled as to the wants for high powered items.

2019/11/03 15:37, Nilin: 
I remember it was somewhat comparable to DK but way more annoying to get in, more dangerous with instakilling traps and a load of statues that all hit like a truck.
You get a palantir (that can be traded for mithril circlet 90% of the times) from DK.
You got a funny little pearl that did some gimmick and a foci helmet for combos who want to use a shield from the dwarven tomb. Nothing even close to as valuable and useful as the circlet.

I'm curious what actually changed, though. Anyone been there recently?

2019/11/04 08:25, Svarten:   
I thought the news post referred to some change to the mystical ring place? How many tombs of the chieftain of Belegost ARE there!?

2019/11/04 12:32, Cohen:  edited 2x   
to Svarten: :-) It looks like you weren't westish for ages. The Mystical ring is connected to 'Unnumbered Tears'. This one is connected to another event of the ancient ages. (it is also part of default mmapper map)

2019/11/04 20:02, One:   
Regarding Speís comment on it being hard to create new item. You donít need to make new items, just put something desirable there. I would do it more often if it loaded a fine metal set, MDA, and some decent gems. You could even put a piece of shining mail. Sometimes keeping it simple is better. I felt like the original loot in this place was from someone overthinking it.
Does anyone know what loads there now?

2019/11/04 21:35, Spe:   
Yes. They tweaked some items. I feel like if they loaded the MDA full metal stuff there would be insane amounts of ouch back for the risk. The items that load are unique and not widely seen. Very few have ventured back there since the changes.

2019/11/05 14:43, Arfang:  edited 1x   
just a few cents
- getting current item and load it also in another place will be a bit 'stealing' and unfair to previously done work as it will have significant impact on the item and its current loading place
- moving something important from 'current' legend places, which are mostly in areas where PK could happen to western coast of Arda would be wrong.
- with logic above, things loaded so westish should be somehow good side focused, ideally it should force players to travel to east and it will not be definitely new piece of full shining - there should be some balance even for evil side
- it is pretty easy to create new item which will just replace current best one on exact wear-slot, but this is not a way we want to extend MUME. The goal is to add something which for a part of players could be attractive so we end with some variety of used equip. I do not pretend we are very successful with reaching such goal. It is pretty thin edge to make it as alternative, not a new minor or new superior item.

2019/11/05 20:14, Zintilden:  edited 1x   
If you don't think it is worth it, then don't bother going?

I dont know anything about this place, but what I do know is I would like to see more variety with eq. Example: cloth and leathers coming back with different stats where they are useful for certain classes who prefer lighter eq(yes, for thieves!), but not such malus that it is not worth wearing for the good stat effects it has. Or to see white chain coming back with modified stats, maybe alteration of it being black chain for different stats over white etc. I would not like more OP items added.

Eq became stale here IMO long ago. Everyone wears: fine chain, shining chain, fine metal, shiningthatmakesyouallactretarded.

I like that this current Management is now trying to add this variety where they can and appreciate it. I'm sure I am not the only one.

2019/11/06 22:06, Aganir:   
I wish there were darkie-only things like this; I am incredibly intrigued by it, but have literally no desire whatsoever to play puke and test it out.

I love the idea of diversifying equipment though; the idea of black chainmail and white chainmail having different stats, maybe one had more OB one has more DB and the fine chains are middle of the ground, would add a ton.


2019/11/07 00:29, Shaukr:   
I agree with the above posts: eq variety is neat, progress towards that is cool progress. I'd also like to see darkie-only stuff, not because dark needs to be balanced with light's options but because unique eq/zones/experiences can add to the identity of the sides of the game.

2019/11/07 01:29, Zintilden:   
What was the last thing made for darkie specifically anyhow? I was gone 4-5 years. There had to be something since the star charm surely or that is just madness! 8P

2019/11/07 01:35, Elestir:   
Tarnished wristband (for mana) and dark draughts perhaps. But other than that, no idea atm.

2019/11/07 05:28, Shaukr:   
I don't know if you can conceptually count tarnished wristband as made specifically for darkies since it's only accessible through corrupting the whitie version (that can only be acquired by whities).

2019/11/07 09:22, Elestir:   
One thing is who is it designed for and other how you obtain it. But if we are talking about obtaining, then you should count silvery crown, because while only pukes can wear it, it can be obtained relatively easily even by darkies and they can then corrupt it into twisted crown. Also the silvery crown itself sucks, so whities have basically no reason to loot it.

2019/11/07 12:34, Zintilden:  edited 1x   
I dont really count new darkie items myself as ones that darkies obtain by looting off a puke corpse and having to corrupt. There is too much chance/luck that the item comes their way with a smaller player base IMO. Plus then you have to fuck around with getting curser to log etc.

Yeah, sorry, but that is shitty! On another note, when Management does try to add something new/cool, the response seems to imply it is not enough or it is not appreciated IMO. Guess you can't please everyone though, am I right? 8)

2019/11/08 00:03, IminyŽ:edited 1x   
I am surprised to see anonymous Zintilden uses 'I' instead of 'we'. Best you've written during last years.

2019/11/21 21:27, Dent:   
So with this area, you have 3 factors that a group needs to take into account before doing, how hard is it to solve the puzzles, what risk is there when doing the area, and what incentive (loot, herblore, etc) is there for taking the risk.

How hard is it to solve the puzzles (I.E. entering the area and progressing through to the end)? Easier now, though the requirements are still a little high, given you have to destroy an OIE book, and have the ability to determine when in the month moon will be up at night. Not unreasonable, but the incentive should take this into account. Before the change it was completely unreasonable.

What risk is there? There are some recoverable death traps in order to reach the final area, so don't try to figure out the required directions on a char with lores/quests up. The mobs at the end used to be insanely over powered, to the point where they could wipe out a group of legends, leaving them with a mob death and unable to recover eq. The mobs there are now a bit less OP, but care should be taken when doing. I will not enter the area without a minimum group of 1x buffer, 2x damage hitters and 1x cleric with sanc. Soloing the area is unthinkable, don't try it. I only say this because when I did it after the change, there was a caster there with charmies trying to get in. Charmies won't make it passed the under water statue, and even if they could, those mobs at the end would rip through a caster in a second, especially since they have a special attack against aggressive spells.

Finally, what incentive/reward is there for doing? To be honest, this is still a sticking point for me. There is a pearl which is an artifact and provides perma-bless to dwarves only, a slim silvery wristband which gives +1 mana regen / -1 move regen / -10 saving spell, and a wide silvery wristband which gives -1 mana regen / +2 move regen / -10 saving spell, and cannot be worn with metals or chainmail. The pearl, being dwarf only for the bless effect, isn't really worth it IMO, especially since dwarves can already get visored, other warriors can get quartzite ring or a couple pracs in bless, and casters can have bless staff in staff to give whole group perma-bless. The slim silvery wristband might be useful to some casters particularly hobbit casters, but it isn't really a must-have item like corb/circlet, and doesn't really reward the majority of the group which have to be warriors. The wide silver wristband however, would actually make an interesting item, but there is one snag, it cannot be worn with metal or mail armour, so only scouts who wear cloth would value it. Such a shame, as the wide silvery wristband would have otherwise been a promising item for any class. I would urge the staff to consider making it wearable with metal/mail armour, and of course allowing darkies to corrupt it as well, if it isn't already possible.

2019/11/22 11:16, Rogon:   
We know we failed the first around with this tomb. It just wasn't rewarding enough for anyone to bother with. It is still too early to say where we landed now.

We put hints in there for how you are 'supposed' to navigate the
area. You're not supposed to figure out the directions to go by crashing bridges. Doing so is bad for several reasons.

When doing new items we have to consider old items. We don't expand MUME by removing the incentive to do old areas and old smobs. This is a constant struggle when doing new areas - coming up with loot that is both interesting enough to do the new area for, but still not so good it makes old areas irrelevant. It is in that context you have to view the wristbands. If some think they are the best choice for their char, it's good. If noone does, or everyone does, it's bad.

Oh, and Nimphelos is a lot more than a dwarf bless necklace.

2019/11/22 12:02, Uge:   
I got that pearl once. It got me some sweet jail time in the shire and Rohan. Auto casting piece of shit!

2019/11/22 17:18, Svarten:   
I think you can get super pissed if you tinker around with that pearl and a barrel of rum. Dwarven science...

2019/11/22 17:48, Fieldy:   
I still have no idea what that pearl does.

2019/11/22 22:17, Ain:   
I still have no idea where that place is...

2019/11/22 23:24, Fieldy:   
I can tell you where it is if you can tell me what the pearl does :D

2019/11/23 00:34, Nuin:   
Got excited when I saw the news, got less excited after seeing Dent's post :P As the foci helmet was unchanged I dont see why anyone would still do the place for the other items, they seem really meh.

2019/11/23 04:52, Elestir:   
The wristband seem interesting now at least (as opposed to the old wristband which was pointless). I am glad the +2 moveregen wristband is incompatible with chains/metals, because there is too much moveregen eq as it is. And scouts in plain aren't the most mobile class so it's ok.

The foci helm is unchanged? Too bad. But if they wanted to make it a real alternative to staff or 10db ring it would have to be really kick ass helmet.

2019/11/23 05:30, Rashnak: 
@Rogon: 'We don't expand MUME by removing the incentive to do old areas and old smobs.'

You could consider spreading out loading of old EQ randomly to different supermobs in different superzones.

For example, while Wightlord or Willow belong to where they are due to references in Tolkien literature or related storylines in the game, the items they load usually have no such connections.

Blue crystal and ruby ring could just as well pop randomly on these old mobs OR equally hard mobs in some new zones.

Players would have incentives to do both old and new zones, without needing to invent new rewards and thus inflating the game.

Furthermore, at least I personally am quite confortable playing without all the newest trinkets, with equipment I get from sources I've known for years. As such, I would have more incentives to visit the newer areas, if also those old items occassionally had to be acquired from new sources.

2019/11/23 16:14, Korlyle:   
Foci helmet is not unchanged, you can embed it with one gem now. And apparently at least tigers eye has different effects for each race than it does in staff.

2019/11/24 02:19, Rogon:   
Rashnak, I am not particularly fond of the idea of taking old loot, and putting it on new smobs. One will always be considered easier than the other and be the one people go to for the loot. It reduces the relevance of for example willow, if you can do some other smob for the crystal.

Distributing loot randomly is also annoying. If I want a ruby ring, I don't want to kill 10 smobs for it because it could be on any of them, rather than focusing on the place where it does load.

That's how I feel about it, though one opinion on that isn't worth more than any other I guess.

As for sticking to what you know and am comfortable with, that's what happens when you get old. You get conservative and don't like all the new stuff! It is true though that we could force players to new places by putting old things they really need/want there (certain spells in Lorien for example). Again, to me this is mostly an annoying design with all stick, no carrot.

2019/11/24 09:44, Rashnak: 
@Rogon: 'One will always be considered easier than the other and be the one people go to for the loot. [...] If I want a ruby ring, I don't want to kill 10 smobs for it because it could be on any of them'

Maybe you got it in the second sentence, but my point was that such stuff could only pop at one of the smobs at once. You could not do (for example) wightlord for ruby ring, while another smob was holding it, and vice versa. If the item happens to pop on easier mob, consider yourself lucky. Maybe next time you aren't.

Besides, it is not uncommon that nobody does certain smob unless someone first scouts them to confirm that they are carrying the loot. Doesn't apply to all mobs, but for many (that don't have guaranteed loot).

It's one thing to have some item load randomly on '10 smobs' as you put it (herbal quest item comes to mind), and quite another to distribute loading between 2 or 3 mobs max. Mind you, these would generally be items that players really want/need (like willow crystal for example).

Between having to farm smob A 10x, or having to farm smob A 5x + smob B 5x, for the same loot, I'm pretty sure the latter would serve the game better overall.

Lastly, does it really matter if another level 50 chooses to not wear [insert your favourite legend item] because it is more troublesome to find? Lower level/inexperienced guys would be less bothered going the extra mile, and can usually use the XP and adventure more too - especially if it on occassion loaded on smob 'easier than the other'.

I give you though, that it may be technically difficult to distribute loading of certain gear between 2-3 smobs, but ignore same items on players and certain special mobs that typically do not get killed for the items.

2019/11/24 10:26, Nilin: 
I hope the entrance got cleared up as well. It uses a similar mechanic to the DK to enter (moonlight on a rune) but since the area is constantly covered in thick clouds and/or fog, there's practically zero chance that's happening.

To get in, you have to have a mage with control weather with you or you'll be sitting there for hours. Even with control weather, it's bloody annoying - even the thinnest of fog or clouds will prevent the moonlight.

Getting in was one of the worst things about the area, the other horrible bit was the statue fight - casting spells in the room with statues gets you kicked out of the room (and interrupting the spell, If I recall you also lost the mana from spellcasting) so you have to precast whatever you need and then hope for the best while you're watching your warriors slowly getting pummeled to death. The first time we failed, we had 3-4 sanced lvl80+ dwarves with us.
Oh yes. Getting knocked out of the room also stuns you for a while so if you land in a room with several statues, good bye life. Statues also follow you if you agro them like this.

/morning rant

2019/11/24 15:20, Arfang:  edited 1x   
- that first attempt after zone opening was a grand failure - i, as builder, wanted smarter mobs - with much better level of cooperation, intelligence to pick targets etc, crypt layout is tough including way out, approaching group was a balrog one, pretty sure they can storm anything and the result didn't make happy anyone. No need to be scared from that memory, things were changed right after.

- yes, as the news said we tried with this change to touch all parts, which from our perspective make you uncomfortable, so the access is also altered.

2019/11/24 17:06, Elestir:   
@Korlyle Ah, that's interesting. Can we dismantle the helmet like we can dismantle staves to experiment with the gems, or do we need to kill the place 20x to test each gem? (or more if it gives diff stuff for diff races actually)

@Arfang If the target group was a balrog one, then there was nothing easier than to add a delayed door which needs strength of 7x18+ str chars to be opened. Just saying...

2019/11/24 18:20, Nuin:   
What a bummer, Helmet cant be dismantled, and tiger-eye gives it +3 hp regen to half-elves, just ruined my foci :D tnx gods

The usual ... shite

2019/11/24 19:08, Arfang:   
@Elestir - my point is that if anyone has just the terrible experience of first visit - so the then pressure of mobs, no visible way how to open way out is gone for ages. It doesn't mean, that anyone planning to visit should underestimate the crypt.

2019/11/24 22:58, Korlyle:   
@Elestir like nuin said, no dismantle. I embedded an opal in mine and it IDed to +10 attack spell same as staff.

2019/11/25 16:57, Elestir:  edited 1x   
So it seems the +10 attack spell will be the best option for helmet (just like for staff). So if we compare staff focus with helmet focus, we get following:

A. staff + circlet: no abs on head, +30 attack spell, 20pb, -10 save, cheaper spells, faster spells, can bash only as smiter
B. helmet + bej: 14 abs on head, +10 attack spell, 30pb, -10 save, cheaper spells, can bash
C. helmet + staff: 14 abs on head, +20 attack spell, 25pb, -10 save, cheaper spells, cannot bash

So it's mostly choice between A ad B, i.e. +20 attack spell and faster spells vs 14 abs on head, +10pb and better bashing potential. Problem is PK is all about speed and power, so attack spell and faster spells vastly outweigh defensive abilities and bashing potential for casters and non-bashing combos. And if you want to bash on combo char, you may better opt for sapphire ring (both +10db for superb buffing and +10ob for more reliable bashes seem more rational choices than the helmet even with the added gem). Even if they gave the helm 100 abs like Dragonhelm, I think I would still prefer the staff/sapphire ring btw. Even if it means giving up manaring, but I can always switch to manaring when I am low mana and need regen... Also with sapphire ring, you can use both circlet/morion situationally for superior spellpower/abs. With the helmet you don't have those options.

I guess MUME management will need couple more years to finally give the helmet something that at least 1 char setup will find a must have...

2019/11/27 01:53, Strori: 
I switch staff/shield...

2019/11/27 17:36, Dent:   
I should also say that I do like the area, and think it is a very cool design. I like that the puzzles incorporate ideas found in existing smob areas, while providing something new. I don't think it needs to be made any easier than it currently is, but I do think the reward needs to reflect the difficulty in getting the prerequisites for entering and doing the area, as well as the fact that you need to destroy an OIE book and key, which could have otherwise been a mana ring or str ring. If the target group for doing is one made up of warrior classes, the reward needs to be something warriors want.

2019/11/27 20:09, Elestir:   
@Dent They could put a winged helmet there (and possibly move the foci helm somewhere else - amon?) and/or maybe do something with that double-bladed axe, so it's actually useful, maybe make it upgradeable into artifact axe with decent stats once in a while in BM.

2019/11/27 23:58, One:   
You think the chieftain of Belegost would have some nice gear on him. A tall helm similar to dragon helm at least. I would love to see some galvorn eq thrown in there. Lighter then fine mails, little less abs, but effective vs arrows and fire.

2020/01/05 15:14, Nuin:   
An elven shopkeeper tells you 'I simply cannot embed a polished white quartzite into an ancient, jewelled helmet.'

WTH, so +1 attack or HP regen for caster? :D its almost criminal how badly the resources are wasted for changes. Could have done much better with this change.

2020/01/05 17:05, Arfang:   
Ok, noted that there is someone who thinks bless gem in helmet could be useful. As we are lazy and we do not want to waste effort so we coded just gems which could make sense for combat oriented caster, and bless gem did not sound for us as interesting option.

2020/01/17 15:11, Nuin:   
FYI, the tigereye gives +3 hp regen to dwarves also so its fair to assume that someone put some effort in thinking that HP regen is something that all caster type combos would REALLY like :P

2020/01/17 18:36, Nuin:   
I guess it could be worse, like +2 hp regen and 1 manaregen, like it is for half-elves and humans with staves :P

2020/01/18 14:27, Elestir:  edited 1x   
It's more like they are afraid to make the item overpowered so they solve it by giving it bonuses nobody needs. Then they wait several RL years and if the item gets ignored enough they will marginally improve its stats, and this process repeats after next few years, etc.

2020/06/23 17:11, Grant:   
I've noticed there have been a few ancient metal helmets in shops since some have been doing the quest recently. The non-focused helmet is actually nice for certain classes since it is lighter weight than fine chainmail coif and provides better protection with no stat malus.

IMO, the helmet would be more desirable if the focus aspect was taken away and its abs% and max abs was made equal to a great helm. This change would make ancient helmet appealing to many classes (warriors, warscouts, combos, certain casters). It would also be desirable and attainable by evil races through pk. Sell value should be increased, as well, to at least 50g (new).

Overall, I believe a lot of eq that is currently completely unused could be made viable again with minor changes, such as giving all soft leather OB bonuses again. More useful eq shouldn't upset game balance and add a little more variety rather than the fine metal/mail sets every character wears now.

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