Arglebargle: * for Hobbits

* for Hobbits

catchup discussions

<< < 01 02

2021/01/02 08:15, Rael:

I can contribute someway with this discussion.
I honestly think hobbits are the most difficult race to play, at least if you want to pk.
A hero troll can destroy a high level hobbit if he is not well equipped ( a level 15 troll was kicking my ass at level 50 just because i had a basic set)
An orc warrior too very easily.
Bns with charmie too, and without charmies can be a challenge.
The fact is that the crap stats of the race make them so terrible in every class. The only resonable one is the scout but ... scouts as widely said are nerfed.
Pure scouts must have at least 106 % 107 % in sneak stab to be effective but you have also to be conservative on moves or you will die.The nice envenom skill on pukes is good only vs bns since orcs are resistant and trolls immune. Steal (that could be nice) is not working. I am glad that management found out a way to make search useful again (and not to map only the first time) but there is some more work to do. It is self explaining that there are no level 100 hobbits around (afaik).Anyway i am too bound to this charachter ( my first one in mume in far 1996) that i will keep playing it and mostly dying with it.

2021/01/02 10:33, Elestir:

Belamir wrote: Wouldn't Elestir's suggestions about the delay for sneak and flush make it harder to sneak past multiple opponents, i.e. give further advantage to groups?

I suggested replacing nosneak with this delay outdoors. Nosneak already makes it harder for sneaker to get past multiple opponents (if they hit him at least once, forcing him to flee and get nosneak). Problem of nosneak is, it renders scouts pretty much useless in actual combat (inferior to warriors in most aspects). Thus I look for ways to make scouts bit more viable offensively, but at the same time I do not want to make them stronger defensively (by increasing their escape/survival potential). If scout wants to flee fast in outdoor terrain, he always has the option to turn off sneak. If he prefers to stay sneaking, he shouldn't be so fast that it prevents denying him the passage through the room he just fled from if his enemies start flushing right after he fled (which was the case before nosneak was implemented afaik).

And because I do not suggest additional delay to sneak indoors, to solve the same problem there, I instead suggest to make flush/reveal/search faster there. Making sneak slower indoors would yet again make scouts pretty much useless in those indoor combat situations. But without faster flush/etc. they would be too strong (also one of reasons why nosneak was implemented I think).

2021/01/02 11:07, Slayah:

I still do not understand the idea of trolls doing significantly more dmg to hobbits though. It has no basis in the books, and makes for terrible gameplay as 9/10 hobbits will not fight a troll due to the fact it's an autoloss assuming not huge pk group. A rock paper scissors style gameplay can be fun, but only if everything beats something, not if rock beats everything!

And for all those saying hobbit power is fine. Please post your logs of you playing hobbit doing all these awesomely balanced hobbit things you speak of.

Hobbit warlords are rare, high level hobbits are rare, there are no level 100 hobbits. Why? Because apparently zaug, bn, tark, troll all these 'hard' races are more enjoyable to play. All you have to do is look at the warlord lists/recent logs/who list to see this painfully illustrated.

2021/01/02 12:23, Moro:	edited 24x
I definetly see why there're no Hobbits lvl 100

2021/01/02 18:47, Elestir:

I also don't understand what was the motivation for the vulnerability from trolls for hobbits. If it was their small size, it should have been done differently. I wouldn't object if that ineff was lifted and replaced with something else, maybe some general disadvantage to being lighter (so far it barely brings any disadvantages other than when you need weight to activate some mudlles). Maybe bashing (or at least door-bashing) could be based on body weight (with weight of worn/carried equipment included) on top of STR and bash skill.

2021/01/04 14:08, Tunck:

Ares :) Wobbits rule !!!!! I used to play Reno , he was very good at level 75 and I have Junnar which is lev 60. One was pure warrior the other is mage with charm. Tons of fun. With Reno i survived countless times when we did pk in warrens and charged everyone everywhere. Yes we get a bit spanked v trolls, and we have lower str but now with str rings and lores and shit I think hobbit is ok. Hps were good, at least after leve 60. Bash was fast. Well mounts did suck but now there is dales so dunno. Harder then others sure but not totally underdog. And well its fun when your opponents underestimate you. You can surprise them. And v trolls, they always targeted me, so I went wimpy ran around and the rest of the group killed them. Worked most of the time. But yes solo warrior v somthing its harder to play. But again with levels ya equal the difference. As ya get more ob and hps and defence.

2021/01/05 10:36, Ares:
@Tunck All you are describing applies to any other race at that level too :D and since I intimately know your lack of experience with other races, you just dont know how much better other races can be :)

2021/01/05 11:46, Tunck:
Amen to that Ares :)

2021/01/05 21:06, Osilin:
Nosneak doesn't come all the time and it seems to me it comes less often with high sneak skill and even less often when you are hobbit.

2021/01/06 00:00, Ares:
Nosneak depends on WIL, make a max WIL char and feel the difference. As Hobbits have racial bonus to WIL .. make your own conclusions.

2021/01/06 15:43, Osilin:
I didn't know about the will power dependance, but I bet skill percent counts too. Hobbits do have bonus of it, but ironically scouts usually don't have high WIL.

2021/01/06 16:00, Belamir:
Has anyone tried making a high WIL scout to see how often you avoid nosneak? :)

2021/01/06 16:03, Emerka:
Ares, I want to tell you that I hate you a little because you are forcing me to create ANOTHER hobbit scout to test this theory. I'm going to wait a day or two and give Elestir a chance to deny it and save me the misery :P

2021/01/06 16:08, Elestir:
I didn't test it, but I am pretty sure that even with max WIL such scout wouldn't be worth playing. Not only would his general scout skills be way worse but you would still get nosneak often enough to just not bother trying to take any melee fights where you would want to rely on sneak. Nosneak is simply bad solution, every1 knows it by now. Only question is when they do something about it.

2021/01/06 16:39, Tapio:

edited 3x

All this Hobbit talk is motivating me to make pure Hobbit sneaker. I only have a Hobbit warrior from before and, well, he sucks, but its still fun to be piercing warrior. I actually made him because Hobbit has best stats for piercing warrior with high attack-skill. The nimble blade is kinda fun and easy to get even without eq.

Reason for wanting Hobbit sneaker is that supposedly they have best sneak. And xping sneaker is all about backstab and the fewer % of backstabs I fail the better my life will be. Will Hobbit sneaker do this for me?

What I find difficult to decide is balance between str and con. Str is for % wilderness, con is for moves. I plan to only use plain stuff because, well, I don't want the baddies to target my feet :o So, str for carrying stuff is not so important. If I get hit I run, if I get locked up I die, that is my Hobbit PK philosophy. Stand and fight? Not for me.

Here are the stats I am pondering, %b:
Str:12 Int: 8 Wis: 8 Dex:19 Con:16 Wil:14 Per:18. (Hobbit)
after train:
Str:14 Int: 8 Wis: 8 Dex:19 Con:16 Wil:13 Per:17. (Hobbit)

A variation is to have %b:
Str:12 Int: 10 Wis: 8 Dex:19 Con:16 Wil:13 Per:18. (Hobbit)

I am a bit unsure about int. I can trade 1 wil for 2 int. With 14 wil I get well above 100 wilderness and a bit of boost to endurance %. But its nice to have the option to become good at envenom and high pick % is thief magic. And being somewhat clever feels nice. Also, when researching hobbit thief stats on ER, I noticed that some ppl* put a few points in wis instead of int, what is up with that?

------------------------

As to the general discussion, I think Hobbit feet should be as good at move cost reduction as rigid leather boots. I bet that is what Hobbit feet are anyways. Or possibly, play around with the race move cost table, ie, Hobbit feet like marshes, woodlands and plains but dislike mountains and hills. Does not quite map to those categories thought and would be hard to recategorize all tens of thousands of Mume rooms just to add 'ground surface hobbit feet friendlyness'.

2021/01/07 18:37, Draz:

edited 3x

I would recommend reading the orc scout thread, some OG scout drop serious knowledge in there. Scout is really complex unfortunately so there's no perfect answer (although the uber orc scout stats recommended are very safe).

Tl;dr elf scout is probably more powerful overall scout vs. hobbit.

FYI I don't think there's much if any difference with hobbit in boots vs. elf scout. The main draw is the extra move regen and popping your boots off for some extra sneak bonus... No one has been able to tell me how much that bonus is worth (which could be a lot, sneak has a hard cap from what I can tell besides bonuses and fails a lot regardless of how pure / perfect on sneak success variables you seem to be). Elves also have an extra per so that gives you extra flexibility on warrior pracs (like endurance that likely performs similarly with the hobbit base move regen due to lowered total moves).

In general, we've discovered strength helps a LOT with both moves, sneak/stab success rate, wilderness and pierce OB. So you'd probably want to bump strength a lot in favor of will. Will doesn't help much with spell save as much as people think.

Again, not a puke scout player (I have 1 legend) but my break points:
-Con 13 or 14 at least seems to keep you out of 1-stab range is the main consideration
-Max STR given other considerations

Here's what my quickly whipped up hobbit scout would look like:
Str:15 Int: 8 Wis: 8 Dex:19 Con:14 Wil:11 Per:18
-96% track should be still solid with pursue command
-I think this just barely cracks 101% wilderness which is likely a breakpoint
-Very flexible for warscout, trying out higher con / max str trained, etc. since you don't know exactly what you need

Tweak as desired.

2021/01/07 19:53, Emerka:
Similar stats to what Draz suggests, stab worked pretty well on this char, I didn't bother with light at all (ruby was on almost all the time) and I just took off boots for 2nd/3rd stab. Str:15 Int: 9 Wis: 8 Dex:19 Con:15 Wil:12 Per:17. (train down 2 per for 1 str 1 con)

2021/01/07 22:59, Shaukr:

Related to this, I made a hobbit recently. I xped mostly solo, largely w of bwb and in Fangorn, up until level 15-16 (when I started quaking/grouping more).

Was it weaker than if I made a better race-class combo? Undoubtedly. Did I have to do anything special, or was I limited in how I played the game as a starter character? Not particularly.

Of course, I am not a new player. But I still don't think I can agree that the race needs a * for being sufficiently harder to make and play for inexperienced players.

Could do with some fuckin' tweaks to mana regen, though, jesus.

2021/01/08 01:15, Grant:

@Emerka, those are the exact stats I have on my legend hobbit and they work great. With training (-2 per, +1 str, +2 con) and good age I get the following stats:

Str:17 Int:10 Wis:8 Dex:20 Con:18 Wil:13 Per:16

Currently playing as pure scout in cloth, but the stats are versatile enough to play warscout if I wanted.

Having high Str with low weight definitely helps with stabbing. It also has really nice Def (180+) with good equipment, so lack of abs is not really an issue with stab/esc for XP, even on tougher mobs.

Overall, I enjoy playing Hobbit more than any other race as scout. Would be perfect if it could just have barefoot move reduction!

2021/01/08 06:03, Elestir:

Regarding the movecost reduction for barefoot hobbits, I kinda like one has to choose: additional sneak bonus OR moves. I don't think hobbits should walk barefoot on long distances, and prefer if this option for them remains a situational thing (like before they go sneak into room full of enemies to land a stab, and then wear boots again). What hobbits (and not only them) truly need is getting rid of nosneak.

2021/01/08 10:35, Cohen:

I'm playing with same stats for thief as @Emerka wrote and it works. For warrior i use, but it is more hobby thing,
Str:16 Int:8 Wis:9 Dex:19 Con:17 Wil:12 Per:14.
I can switch setup between piercing one and normal setup sword/hammer

Frankly, there should be some difference between races and there is no much place how you can shift race stats modifier to make some sense and you cannot backup hobbit caster or common mighty warrior with any real reference in books, so fact that they are crappy/hobbu thing is nothing breaking the framework. It is a bit like we need a warrior GM for BNs, nice to have for that race, but hard to happen.

The nosneak/working thief is a fully different and much global thing.

2021/01/14 07:28, Drulgo:
- created with slightly more warriorish stats - warrior till almost legend - 1 month retirement to reroll into stabber

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