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2021/01/05 19:06, Dearth:   
Since we have many new players recently joining MUME, I wrote detailed Zaugurz and Troll guides. They are aimed at players who have made other characters before but haven't tried Zaugurz Orcs or Trolls yet. Goal was to write down good stats, the most efficient progression to best equipment and how to minmax your character to reach its potential. Basically a guide I wish I had when starting my first Troll or Zorc.

It's a great time to try, last weekend we had 13 Zaugurz online for 2 days, for a relatively niche race it is significant.

This is work in progress, any feedback will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers to p Elestir, p Daki and p Razoor for help with the Zaugurz guide and p Luke and p Carl for help with the Troll guide.

[submitted link]

2021/01/05 19:23, Uroth: 
Thanks, I was looking to make one of these soon.

2021/01/05 19:25, Draz:   
These are fantastic, I already learned something new skimming through.

Curious why 3x sable pouches are recommended for orcs? I thought effectiveness vs. fire didn't stack? I've never been certain of the eff vs. cold or eff vs. spell in the context of a container.

2021/01/05 19:48, Raben:edited 1x   
I think he means how many zaugs are required to kill the mob.

Also, magus is soloable with a zaug scout. I won't tell how though!

2021/01/05 20:11, Belamir:edited 1x   
Eff vs. fire in the context of a container means that the contents are safe from being burned, e.g. by the firestorm created by Mithnaur the Dragon. A container that is eff vs. fire (sable pouch, laced quiver), when worn, does not make your character take less damage from fire-based sources.

I'm not aware of any containers that have eff vs. spell or eff vs. cold, and I'm not clear on what effects those could have if they existed.

2021/01/05 20:13, Draz:   
Ahh Faine has sable's as eff vs. cold (which seems useless?) and I saw elsewhere it with eff vs. spell (which I as understand is a weapon modifier that helps vs. armour/shield/sanc).

I just assumed there must be some reason orcs like sables as 1/2 lb isn't free and they should already have eff vs. fire (and it doesn't stack).

2021/01/05 20:51, Faine: 
Eff vs spell - can not be dispelled with 'dispel magic' spell.

2021/01/05 21:19, Neamir: 
Eff vs. spell is effectively the 'nochant' mechanism, to ensure that a certain weapon cannot be enchanted or dispelled. It has no effect on the weapon's impact (rather it prevents a mage from changing that impact via dispelling or (re)chanting).

(I think?) Eff vs. cold on scarf, coat, blanket, etc helps your char with eff vs. disease, i.e. helps certain races save against flu, etc.

I think sables are dramatically overrated, people like them due to some combination of (a) longstanding tradition (b) confusion about the eff vs. fire modifier, which does nothing for your char and (c) to make certain aliases and equ organization easier, like putting scrolls in 1.sable and herbs in 2.sable, etc.

I remember some ancient, obscure note that blessing equ makes it less likely to get corrupted by muddle, particularly slug acid? But this is seriously some ancient memory from the 90s and might be off base.




2021/01/05 21:28, Facelift:   
eff vs spell is PRECHANTED!

stuf

2021/01/05 21:45, Dhar:   
Oh interesting, I'd seen that nochant effect noted in different ways like sometimes just 'magic' or giant spear as 'nochant'.

Orc's are ineff vs. spell under sun I think? That just counts as -spell save?

2021/01/05 21:50, Shaukr: 
Eff-vs-spell is for unenchantable (ie: usually prechanted) magic weapons, non-enchantable is for effectively pre-chanted nonmagic weapons like giant spear, jagged scimitar.

2021/01/05 22:05, Jahara:   
Cool! Can you put them in the MUME wiki so they're editable? It's only a matter of time for them to go out of date :-)

[submitted link]

2021/01/06 05:51, Dearth:  edited 5x   
Thanks Jahara!
Here are Zaugurz and Troll guides on MUME wiki, please anyone feel free to help new players and make changes or add to them:

Zaugurz guide: [submitted link]
Troll guide: [submitted link]
To log in to edit- use character name, MUME account name doesn't work. I did not delete anything in the old troll guide. If anyone wants to help, the EQ load table needs an overhaul.. Faine's page would help to update this table.

Changes made 06.01.21:
1. Added Zaugurz warrior prac % recommendations by p Wingfoot/Tankist with envenom and high dodge.
2. Added this for Heightened Senses: 'Heightened-senses- Awareness +30%, track +50% for ??? hours (DG Magus- need 4, ask Carl for help how to solo as scout- it's a secret strat with luring bats to top tower probably, please be careful, we almost mobbed trying it)'
3. Added this about sable pouches: 'Sable pouch is just extra weight and doesn't protect you from fire spells, eff vs fire means protection against Bloodwight/Mithnaur'

Thank you everyone, eff vs fire thing was new to me. Also as I wrote in the guide: interesting to note that Fror said 'effs don't stack'- so that's why black wrappings on orc scouts (most probably) don't work, because orcs are already eff vs poison. If black wrappings worked then wearing 2 necklaces/chains would make you double effective vs mental spells or defiled shield + black amulet would make you double effective vs light which doesn't happen. Credit for this information to p Elestir.

2021/01/06 10:14, Phoebe:   
Since I try to go as light as possible on scout, you might include these items:

*Plain flowing skirt - can be found on a skeleton near vulture around archer wrist tower
*Plain dress/tunic - half the weight of a shirt (dress should alao load on the same skeleton - might be mistaken)
*wrappings - might not be used for eff vs poison but for light weight 45 vs 10. You only lose 1db.
*cap over hood
*as a scout I would choose leaf over bej tbh.

Put in numbers:
90 vs 75
90 vs 45
45 vs 10
20 vs 15
880 vs 440
1125 vs 585 in total.
Difference is 540. Ofcourse you lose -10 spellsave and -5pb, but as Varien said in orc-scout thread - you should not stand and eat spells like a retard, so that -10 spellsave does not seem like a huge loss.


PS! I know you wanted to put together basic guide, but I just love low weight on scouts. The lighter, the better. And you asked for feedback :)

2021/01/06 10:38, Cohen:   
Trolls guide:
- playing alone troll is pretty boring (who should sit alone all the day). So it is really not needed that all trolls could track, the guide should somehow reflect that and help you pick one of the major path you can play as a troll.
- Is there reason why do you advice not to max STR and in the same setup max CON. Points about wasting setup points and training is valid for both of the stats. I would say it is not needed to go with 25/22 but pick 25/21, 24/22 or 24/21 and use these 10/20 points for other stats.
With that in mind you can go for something like, without setting will so terrible low.
track
24, 8, 6, 13, 21, 11, 12
without track
24, 6, 5, 15, 21, 12, 7
25, 6, 5, 14, 21, 12, 7
24, 6, 5, 14, 22, 12, 7

My own preference is STR over CON, as it is primarily stat for warrior and plenty of ranger skills :-)

2021/01/06 10:51, Arfang:   
I know we have like zero info in help regarding these eff/ineff :-), but in case someone wants to go deeper and get a clue what/when stays on object and what goes also on char i would recommend to use half forgotten spell -> divination. I think you can get to some conclusion with using divination, identify and equip.

2021/01/06 13:04, Amund: 
This sort of content is absolutely great and I hope every class gets an up-to-date guide like these.
That said, what about a general PK guide? I remember someone started something like that quite a few years ago, but I guess it was abandoned at some point. I remember seeing a very rough draft with different class matchups and tactics, which was very interesting and helpful, but I lost the file somehow.
I have always been mostly a solo player, playing on odd hours and not good at making contacts in game. This has lead me to become pretty much clueless when it comes to PK and I'd like to learn. I'm sure many newbies would, too!

2021/01/06 13:10, Phoebe:   
And what do you mean by this?

In zaugs guide:
maybe soon private wiki will be transferred to official wiki as well.

There is a private wiki? Where? How to get access to it? Is it maia only or is it put up from a group of players?

2021/01/06 13:13, Alantir: 
Excellent stuff!

2021/01/06 15:56, Belamir:edited 1x   
Phoebe: I believe this refers to Wojtek's private MUME wiki. It contains extensive 'spoiler' information about the game, and is currently password protected. The decision was made recently, after discussion by Wojtek with the people that contribute to that wiki, to make it public and transfer the information to the official MUME wiki (because spoiler information is allowed on the official wiki now). However, it uses a different wiki code base than the official MUME one, and I think the test runs he did yesterday with copying stuff over resulted in some really ugly formatting. So not sure what the time frame is on opening it up/transferring the information over.

2021/01/06 16:16, Phoebe:   
Oh, that is pretty cool actually. Wonder what new and interesting i fo it has. Going to be a fun reading!

Imo we should link the Faine site to mume wiki aswell. So there wonít be an extra websites to look at. Or atleast have a direct link to Faineís page.

2021/01/06 16:22, Elestir:   
EFF VS SPELL probably means immune to any alteration through magic. This mostly means non-destructible via dispel magic (for magic items). Items that are MAGIC but not EFF VS SPELL can be destroyed by dispel magic (e.g. ruby rings, circlets, ...). On weapons EFF VS SPELL also makes the weapon no-enchant. But I think there are weapons that are no-enchant even without this flag (such as brutal cleaver), which I think is an inconsistent solution.

2021/01/06 17:43, Dearth:   
@Phoebe That's great, added dress&cap&skirt and their load spots! [submitted link]
If wrappings don't work on orc for eff vs poison, they have no abs, no db, why wear them? Leaf vs Beje is debatable because many zorc scouts have high STR especially with train improve+age+STR ring so +5PB is pretty good if you have the STR to carry it.

Also added that if you wear full fine chain then you could wear only knee-high boots to avoid switching between metal boots/black boots. There is a trade off because their absorption is slightly lower so you will get hit on feet a lot but you sometimes get +1DB from lower weight and no switching.

@Cohen Good points, it's definitely possible and a matter of taste. For me, going for max HP and HP regen through max CON and max endurance(CON+WIL) is always essential for a pure warrior. For example p Drogtash, p Wingfoot, p Stolb and p Snakr always preferred max CON for orc warriors.
On wiki there are 3 older troll builds with lower CON already, please feel free to improve them, I just added my own paragraph after those and explained my reasons, this way someone deciding between stats can make an informed choice: [submitted link]

2021/01/06 18:31, Phoebe:   
High str woth lighter eq still means more moves than high str and heavier eq. If you are going for mobility/better stab rate (like I usually do), then Iíd still go for leaf. But this kind of thread is made for debates!

Iím hoping someone else sticks his/her head in and say some more stuff about ot.

2021/01/06 20:47, Draz:   
@Phoebe, I've been wondering if there's an inflection point with high str and light eq where you hit diminishing returns for movement value. On orc scout if you're going to carry say <50 lbs is there any value in 22 str vs 20 str or could those stats be re-allocated.

I will try and expand the scout guide with some mechanics of sneak, etc. that I've collected from some of the best players.

I believe I can also write an orc shaman / combo guide.

No promises on ETA :)

2021/01/06 21:21, Merarl: 
if anyone needs BN guide:

[submitted link]

2021/01/07 08:19, Hallatan:   
Scad's is better [submitted link]

2021/01/07 12:42, Tapio:   
@Hallatan
Scad's written for Mume 6, no? Very confusinig for new player.

2021/01/08 13:18, Dearth:   
Hey, I wrote a new guide for Staves, gems and focus: [submitted link]
I included everything there is to know and what I could find out about staff, major/minor gems, Ancient Jewelled helmet, phials and other kinds of focuses. Also in the end there is interesting setup by Jaagern, he uses both Jewelled Ancient Helmet(Focus) and non-foci staff.

If I have missed something please feel free to edit the guide directly.

2021/01/08 17:14, Grant:   
Thank you for taking the time to collect and publish this information, Dearth and others. It is very helpful to players like myself who do not play as much or know the game as intimately.

2021/01/08 20:19, Neamir: 
Fantastic info, thanks Dearth!

QQ - can gems have different effects when embedded in Ancient Jewelled Helmet vs when embedded in staff? I have heard that this is true for tiger eye (reshifted towards hp regen instead of mana regen) but I've not directly confirmed it myself. Anyone have more info?

2021/01/08 23:17, Praska:   
But why reveal all the info? what fun will be there to play if you cant discover something new and exiting?

2021/01/09 00:59, Dearth:   
Thank you for help and feedback. I made all suggested changes by Breaux and Elestir. And please feel free to make changes yourselves: these are not my personal guides, these are community guides aimed to help new(and old) players.

Changes made to Staff guide:
1) Jaagern setup: better alternative build examples
2) Honey-colored amber's loadspot
3) Banded ring focus change
4) Phial in Moon Pool fix
5) 3 branches load at the same time
6) The fact that OB from EQ on aggressive, goes to 40% PB on wimpy
7) Lots of formatting and wording fixes

Changes made to Troll and Zaugurz guide: suggested trying new 'score report' command.

My next guide will be 'Moon Guide', almost ready, will be about how to know when DK opens, Vale Warg Pack loads and when moon is right for ancient metal helmet place.

2021/01/09 09:34, Erandis: 
Fantasic work, Dearth! I'm looking forward to the moon guide.

I also spotted a few parts of the focus guide where I think we could improve wording and provide a bit more context, I am planning to add that soon.

2021/01/09 16:43, Moneta: 
> But why reveal all the info? what fun will be there to play if you cant discover something new and exiting?

Mixed feelings about this. As someone who didn't play for nearly 2 decades I'm almost a new player and find myself searching for online materials about smobs etc quite a lot. Sometimes this is mixed with some guilt or hesitation regarding taking the easy way and not finding out the solutions myelf. Then again - it seems just putting yourself at a massive disadvantge compared to others (less relevant if you don't PK much ofc), plus IMHO there is just not enough clues about some quests or they can otherwise be somewhat misleading. For example I was recently doing Treebeard's quest and after casting remove poison on the roots 30x would have given up if I didn't know for sure that this is indeed what I need to do. Similarly you had to say 'orc' to another ent to trigger a quest which itself was a bit far-fetched and in addition it only worked on 5+th try. These examples don't really give me a lot of confidence that it's realistic to figure things out on my own.

What I think would be nice would be some semi-spolerish guides which would still have you figure out stuff the 'right' way, but nudge you on the right path, e.g. if you want to make a focus, go talk to someone in Rdell (not sure if what Elrond says really helps, I recall he did talk about it - maybe not the best example). I at least would really enjoy seeing how various mechanics and quests are _meant_ to be solved.

PS Thanks for the guides, I find them very informative.

2021/01/09 17:17, Belamir: 
Yeah, as a returning player myself information like this has helped me get back into the swing of things much more quickly than I normally would have.

And the learning curve for MUME is insanely steep for new players - providing guides like these is only going to help us attract and retain new players, which should be everyone's goal.

If you want to discover stuff on your own, don't read the fucking guides. It's not rocket science Praska.

2021/01/09 18:13, Draz:   
There's so many hidden gems in MUME, I learn something new literally every week that impacts my PK. We still don't even understand how bash works, spell save and spell power I've only seen like 1 person mention any data on their impact, sneak has many mysteries these core mechanics aren't even well understood.

Having the wiki/faine/etc. for the 'basic' common knowledge has been incredibly valuable to me so that I can compete with players who've been here for years after a couple of months. Even with that MUME is still by far the deepest game I've ever played.

2021/01/10 03:54, Cuantar: 
... Another returning old player here, checking in. These guides are great for adapting to things that've been added or changed.

I don't feel like the guides ruin anything for me. It's like how reading logs doesn't compare to actually being there.

2021/01/10 10:08, Naut: 
As of troll's guide:
'Note that no troll has ever reached level 100 yet - you can be the first one!'
Not so true.

2021/01/10 11:45, Enforcer: 
I would suggest these stats for Unarmed troll: Str:25 Int: 5 Wis: 5 Dex:13 Con:20 Wil:14 Per: 8. Gets you 100% unarmed (damage ho!), nice moves, nice defence, good stats for praccing main warrior stuff and can train con/hps to max. Track 79% works fine too.

2021/01/17 09:35, Roadkill: 
Thank you guys for these guides. They're really useful for returning part-timers. Without them, I wouldn't be able to get nearly as much enjoyment out of my game time.


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